In the Rose Garden / The mini-analysis thread

Dallbun · Back to Top

I was idly wondering how many characters in the series had both dueled and served as a Rose Bride. But then I realized that every "Rose Bride" from the car duels had previously fought Utena. (In order: Kozue, Shiori, Ruka, Touga, Saionji.)

Admittedly, it was a very small revelation.

CoffinBreaker · Back to Top

thothptah wrote:
Perhaps it was dropped because it created too close of a connection between Akio's and Anthy's behavior?

Recently it's occurred to me how similar Anthy and Akio really are, movie!Anthy being even more so. I tend to think of Anthy's view of Akio as expressed in the movie a bit of hubris on her part, one that really blows up in her face later on. (If you assume that move!Akio was simply a construct of Anthy's memories and not a real person, as I do.)

As for that scene? I'm pretty glad it was cut, frankly. But that's just yuri bias emot-tongue

OnlyInThisLight · Back to Top

Dallbun wrote:
I was idly wondering how many characters in the series had both dueled and served as a Rose Bride. But then I realized that every "Rose Bride" from the car duels had previously fought Utena. (In order: Kozue, Shiori, Ruka, Touga, Saionji.)

Admittedly, it was a very small revelation.

Fail as a duelist, doomed to be a Rosebride. emot-frown

Chrome Homura · Back to Top

So... is it just me, or is every single duelist in the series not named Touga or Akio manipulated into fighting Utena somehow? With the exceptions of the first/second episodes and the duels called Self and Revolution, it seems to me that every time Utena fights, her opponent is basically instigated into delivering their challenge at someone else's whim...

Last edited by Chrome Homura (06-02-2011 12:52:19 AM)

Randamonian · Back to Top

I had a though just recently, and that was: Everything that happened in the black rose arc must have eventually happened, with some alterations, but without Mikage

Even though the show restarted at the end of the season with the demolished building, Utena must have met Akio and got to be comfortable hanging out, Tatsuya was introduced, Wakaba and Saionji lived together, ect. ect., otherwise, how did the 3rd season get established?

satyreyes · Back to Top

Chrome Homura wrote:
So... is it just me, or is every single duelist in the series not named Touga or Akio manipulated into fighting Utena somehow?

I think you're almost right! I would disagree about three specific cases, though.

- I think Touga is definitely manipulated into fighting. He's in the duels for the power of revolution, make no mistake. The other Student Council members need reasons to gain the power of revolution -- to return to childhood, to get the girl -- but not Touga. Touga wants anything with "power" in its name for its own sake (the power of revolution, the power of Dios, the power of Greyskull, etc). But since the power of revolution is ultimately fictional, at least as far as Akio knows, Touga is being played like the rest of them.

- I think Akio is also arguably manipulated into fighting, by Anthy. Their tacit deal is that as long as Akio keeps running the duels -- and eviscerating the champion -- Anthy will keep pretending to believe that Akio is trying to regain the power of Dios. Conversely, of course, Akio is manipulating Anthy too, so he has some measure of control, but when passive-aggressive power games go that deep, I have trouble not calling it "manipulation."

- Finally, I don't think Ruka is manipulated into fighting. As far as we see, no one suggests to Ruka that he should fight. He arrives at campus knowing the score and with his own plan in place. His immediate reason for dueling is that he's sick and that he wants to spend his last days "fixing" his high school crush; there's no hint that any of this is being teased out of him by anyone's master plan other than his own, unless Akio somehow gave him leukemia. Ruka's not exactly a gentleman -- impending death will do that to a person, I guess, or maybe he was always an asshole -- but he speaks to Akio as an equal, and is using the dueling game for his own purposes rather than vice versa. Ruka's arrival is convenient for Akio, since Akio has trouble manipulating Juri except by proxy, but Akio shouldn't fool himself: Ruka's and Juri's duels in the third arc are part of Ruka's plan, not Akio's!*

* Ruka's plan, by the way? Was successful, unlike Akio's. He planned to liberate Juri from her unhealthy obsession with Shiori, and by the end of the arc, he did that, using Utena as a tool. Ruka died or disappeared afterward, but his job was done; Juri's revolution was achieved. Foreshadowing!

My two cents emot-smile

Last edited by satyreyes (06-02-2011 04:58:10 AM)

Chrome Homura · Back to Top

Your points regarding Touga and Akio make sense... with Akio it still seems a little dubious to call it that, as it can be rather difficult to say for certain who's "manipulating" who in that particular relationship... but I'll leave it at that.

However, in Ruka's case I might have to disagree, sorta. I haven't really cemented the following concept as personal canon yet, but I've got this conspiracy theory regarding the events of those episodes...

See, I have this idea that it's possible Ruka's appearance was in fact orchestrated by End of the World. Sure, we see no evidence to directly point to such influence, but if you keep in mind that "the plan" required Juri to duel again just like the rest of the council, it seems far too convenient for Ruka to walk into the picture with a plan of his own that just happens to fit rather neatly within the agenda of our resident "Acting Chairman".

Simply put, I figure Akio (or perhaps Anthy) came to Ruka and offered him some sort of deal in exchange for persuading Juri to duel again, one that (What with pretty much being on his deathbed and all) Ruka wasn't in a position to refuse. Of course, his method of "helping" Juri fell into that objective, but I sorta think he would've acted differently if it weren't for the whole terminal illness issue.

Last edited by Chrome Homura (06-02-2011 06:17:22 AM)

satyreyes · Back to Top

Chrome Homura wrote:
Simply put, I figure Akio (or perhaps Anthy) came to Ruka and offered him some sort of deal in exchange for persuading Juri to duel again, one that (What with pretty much being on his deathbed and all) Ruka wasn't in a position to refuse. Of course, his method of "helping" Juri fell into that objective, but I sorta think he would've acted differently if it weren't for the whole terminal illness issue.

This is an interesting idea! I think it's likely that Akio and Ruka were talking with each other before Ruka came back; they seem very familiar in the Akio car. But what could Akio have offered to Ruka -- a guy who's going to be dead in a few weeks? Only help in doing what Ruka wanted to do anyway. The conversation must have gone one of two ways:

RUKA: Rijichou, I want to spend my final days destroying Shiori, helping Juri turn away from her, and seeing if maybe we ever could have had a future together.
AKIO: That's fine. Do you want to borrow my car?

-or-

AKIO: Tsuchiya-kun, I need someone to give Juri an emotional crisis.
RUKA: That is exactly what I wanted to do anyway.

Either way, there's no manipulation going on here at all! Just two people whose interests happen to dovetail nicely. emot-smile

Clarice · Back to Top

satyreyes wrote:
Either way, there's no manipulation going on here at all! Just two people whose interests happen to dovetail nicely.

You could argue that Akio's testing the waters, so to speak, because Ruka's reasons for duelling are more "selfless" than many of the other reasons we see; I'm not saying he's a saint, because he clearly isn't, but basically Ruka frees Juri and insists on no return on the investment, so to speak. He might hope for it, but he also appears to have no intention of taking the Shiori-shackles off Juri only to clamp his own on in return. This is a contrast with, say, Mikage, who seems to want to save Mamiya but in fact doesn't take into account what Mamiya is telling him he actually wants (although this is complicated by the fact there are two Mamiyas involved here... emot-gonk ). Akio may have just wanted to see what kind of revolution was more successful, because in the end, Ruka got what he wanted while Mikage was defeated by his desires. Huh.

Dani · Back to Top

Seems like Ruka's altruistic nature would have made him the leading "hero sword" candidate on the council pre-Utena, before his illness took him out of the running. Or maybe he took himself out even earlier?
He has already been revolutionized. He sees right through the game, seems to realize that Anthy manipulates the duels, seems to return to school without being subordinate to Akio, and his only concern is for Juri. Akio was fortunate that Utena came along to replace him, but maybe (in the end) not so fortunate. emot-wink

Dognog · Back to Top

lily1307 wrote:
And of course between Touga, Saionji and Akio... taking photos in the car....so hot *fangirl scream*

I love the idea of the car, even if i dont like Akio. There is just something hypnotizing in the way he drives...even with the same images all the time it always works on me

etc-wankgirl

...Does anyone ever wonder if Wakaba's like "WTF?" ..Because people are coming up to Utena and showing her roses and being like "After school." And there's the time when Touga won Himemiya, and he kept calling her "the bride" and stuff right in front of Wakaba?

satyreyes · Back to Top

Hmm! I don't think we ever see Wakaba suspect anything about the duels. Most likely what's going on in her head, apart from getting angry at Touga for mocking her friend and at Utena for putting up with it, is something like:

The Student Council President? Bride? I have no idea what he's going on about. Utena seems to know, though. As usual, I'm the only one out of the loop. How come no one ever tells me these things?

She assumes, like a normal person would, that there's some rational explanation for what Touga is saying and that no one has bothered to let her in on it. Poor Wakaba. emot-frown

dirufacade · Back to Top

Just rewatched episode 6 / Tsuwabaki's intro.

I don't know why I didn't pick up on this before, but it occurs to me that Touga (obviously) had to be the one who loosed the kangaroo. It wasn't Tsuwabaki because he had only minutes ago resolved to put Nanami in danger and save her again. For whatever reason, I had always assumed it was his or Anthy's machination, but it *has* to be Touga's, since Touga shows up in boxing gloves three or four minutes later. That entire boxing match is staged, by Touga. He's putting Nanami in danger so he can rescue her / show Utena him rescuing her -- exactly as Tsuwabaki was doing all episode. Tsuwabaki who, by the by, is trying to imitate Touga. Touga then uses this exact sort of set-up (Sets Utena in danger, rescues her) in the episode where Saoinji kidnaps Anthy.

I guess I find it interesting that Tsuwabaki claims to want to imitate Touga but does so in a malicious and deceptive way -- which is, in fact, *exactly* what Touga is doing. And since Touga aspires to be like Akio and Tsuwabaki wants to be Touga, it's turtles, turtles, turtles all the way down.

* * *

Also, I just noticed that in the Nanami duel, she *does* manage to take Utena's rose off, albeit after the official duel is over. Other than Touga, does anyone else manage to actually knock it off? In some AU where Utena never made it to the Academy, I can't help but feel that Nanami would have ended up being the one at the Duel called Revolution.

Also of note: Episode 11, Utena mentions: To make Anthy a normal girl, I have to protect from her the others. Even if that includes my Prince.

This is... basically the story of the ending, too, even though she's saying it in reference to Touga at the time.

Last edited by dirufacade (08-07-2011 08:22:56 AM)

Notebook Darling · Back to Top

I'm not sure this fits here or it's been said before.

But suddenly I had this tiny revelation about miki's stopwatch.
What if it was like this concert.

What if he thought of a lot of things as 'music' and stopped when it felt like the concert reached it's climax.

Or something like that.

Chrome Homura · Back to Top

Thread necro powers, GO!

I didn't really feel this deserved it's own thread, so I decided since necromancy is encouraged at this place (last I checked, at least >.>) to post it here.

I noticed this a while ago actually, but I didn't think to write anything about it until I remembered this thread, and couldn't help but wonder...

In Ep. 18, Utena asks Akio if dreaming about her prince is "weird". There's a certain subtlety to the interaction that I didn't quite notice as being significant until a fairly recent re-watch... that being Akio's reaction. For a brief moment he seems genuinely surprised, and the clear sound of a gasp is heard. Utena then gets embarrassed, and promptly changes the subject.

Now, my question here would have to be: Was Akio actually surprised? And if yes, why? What is it about Utena's query that managed to provoke such a response from him? Perhaps I'm trying too hard to read into it and the answer is so simple that I'm overlooking it, but either way it confuses me...

Atropos · Back to Top

If Nanami existed in the Movie-verse, she probably suffered the same fate as Touga. emot-frown

MissKosmic · Back to Top

In episode 2, during the shadow play scene, a human hand carries a cactus across the screen, in front of the shadows. I've never noticed this before, but it certainly lends some credence to the idea that the shadow play girls are in fact real flesh and blood.

Katzenklavier · Back to Top

Chrome Homura wrote:
In Ep. 18, Utena asks Akio if dreaming about her prince is "weird". There's a certain subtlety to the interaction that I didn't quite notice as being significant until a fairly recent re-watch... that being Akio's reaction. For a brief moment he seems genuinely surprised, and the clear sound of a gasp is heard. Utena then gets embarrassed, and promptly changes the subject.

I think it's his slightly playful way of allaying her fears about her dream being considered unusual. It made her clearly uncomfortable, after all, and she certainly didn't want to pursue the issue afterward. But it's up for debate. As is bloody everything in the series.

During my re-watch, I became a bigger and bigger fan of the relationship between Utena and Wakaba. It's clear the latter acts as the only anchor in the entire series. For so many characters, Wakaba acts as an angel of their better natures. The most poignant example of this is during Ep. 12, when Utena was depressed and so close to giving up her princely ambitions. I love our favorite heroine's expression when she observes her friend vulnerable and crying. She adopts that confident assertive smile, with the slightest hint of princely flirtation in her gaze. When the loss of Anthy robs her of her identity, she eventually finds a surrogate princess in Wakaba to comfort and protect. It's a really sweet underrated moment.

satyreyes · Back to Top

Episode 12 is my favorite episode. emot-smile This is an unpopular opinion, I think... most people prefer the Black Rose Arc or the Akio/Apocalypse Arc. But Episode 12 is my favorite, because it sums up what is important about Utena's character -- and it's through Wakaba that Utena is revealed. I ship it. emot-rofl

Katzenklavier · Back to Top

I think that a lot of fans respect the episode, but it's difficult for many to take the first arc seriously. The following seasons have so much more obvious pathos. They tear through whatever thin veneer of shoujo innocence the first season leaves intact. Each character goes through such a trajectory, such a personal journey, that it's hard to take the initial set-up into account. For myself, at least, it initially felt like a devolution in my analysis to start with the characters' introductions rather than the product of development. And yet the more I watch it, the more I come to appreciate.

Utena's character -- and it's through Wakaba that Utena is revealed. I ship it.

Absolutely. Even though they represent opposite ends of the stereotypical femininity/masculinity spectrum, they are far more alike than they are different. Both are idealistic and self-sacrificial to their own detriment. Similarly, both are naive and bullheaded. The parallel is elaborated in their relationships. Utena refuses to see anything but what fits her world view in Anthy. On a smaller scale, Wakaba cannot knock Saionji off her pedestal. The source of such willful ignorance? On both accounts, compassion. Although misguided, both characters highlight the positive traits of those they wish to save. Both fall prey to their own deluded dreams of redeeming another. The more I consider it, the more I come to appreciate the depths of their friendship. More than anyone, Wakaba offers support for the oft misunderstood protagonist. They're opposites superficially yet practically twins when it comes to beliefs and motivations.

Love · Back to Top

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxYHQrvMCEs&NR=1

thothptah wrote:
At 0:31 with Akio looking at a naked Utena I wonder how that scene was going to play out

Utena: I will always be me... I will absolutely never become the sort of adult you are.
Akio: Don't make me laugh... I am your future. So there is no way that you could ever become happy. (your/you is plural)

Doesn't really add that much, but better than nothing I guess...

Last edited by Love (12-29-2011 09:27:29 PM)

thothptah · Back to Top

Love wrote:
Doesn't really add that much, but better than nothing I guess...

It is better than nothing! Thank you- I'm assuming that was a translation of the on screen text from that shot?

Aelanie · Back to Top

Here's one that I recently had.

As I stated in the North America thread, I've been wearing the ring I got to work on and off. I've never worn a ring before for any length of time, and to be honest...it's sort of a pain. I have to be careful what to do with my hand - which is especially bad since I'm left-handed - and I'm always adjusting it to keep the design straight on my finger, and worrying about getting it dirty or smudged. As much as I enjoy wearing it, I definitely feel more free and unencumbered without it.

Thinking about this made me realize that the ring might also have felt inconvenient to Utena too. I'd never looked at it this way before, but as much as she cherished it, and as important to her as it was, I'm sure it got in her way or worried her in a lot of small ways. I think now that finally being rid of it, as I'm certain she was after the end of the series, would definitely feel like "freedom", and is a great metaphor for the freedom she had achieved both for herself and for Anthy.

Needless to say though, I'm very pleased that actually wearing the ring inspired me toward new reflections on the show, and I'll continue to wear it as the mood strikes me. emot-tongue

Love · Back to Top

thothptah wrote:
Love wrote:
Doesn't really add that much, but better than nothing I guess...
It is better than nothing! Thank you- I'm assuming that was a translation of the on screen text from that shot?

Yes, that's right. It's probably from some alternate script that wasn't used so they put it in the trailer.

Chrome Homura · Back to Top

Arise, old thread! Ariiiiiiise!

I wanted to post here because I didn't think this deserved it's own thread, but it'll require a bit of detail...

Today I caught myself thinking about Miki's fencing stance in his duels (idk why, but for some reason I have an eye for subtlety when it comes to observing forms of combat) and decided I liked his in particular. He seems to make an effort to emphasize the freedom of movement the style offers, keeping himself relaxed, ready to anticipate the next move. Of course, his lack of focus brings him to ruin (after rewatching just now, I noticed for the first time that the pause before the end isn't the only time he takes a break to glance at Anthy... *sigh*) but strictly speaking, there aren't any clear flaws in his form to speak of. His weakness is a personal problem, not related to the swordplay itself... but I'm getting sidetracked, distracted not unlike him. Nice!

As seen here:

This shot in particular is exactly what comes to mind when I imagine Miki in the arena. His limbs are outstretched, but he's not tense. It's like he's making a point of emphasizing that he can pounce or dodge in any conceivable direction from this stance, spelling doom for the enemy by threatening to perfectly counter any given approach from his opponent.

Today I've been going over this, and I happened to notice a connection. His fencing style could be interpreted as a reflection of his yet not-quite-developed personality... I'm sure I've gone over this before, but I've taken acute notice of the fashion in which Miki can quite easily be influenced by the people he interacts with, strongly enough that with the varying moral perspectives of those around him, it seems likely for his own future way of life to be ultimately decided by who exactly he ends up deciding to take notes from. As I said I'm sure this is something I've mentioned before, but it wasn't until today that I drew this particular parallel.

Anyway, I think it's interesting how his open-ended style can be seen as a reflection of his lack of direction in life. I guess that's what I was wanting to say.

#26 | Back to Top05-24-2011 01:09:05 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#27 | Back to Top05-24-2011 09:08:16 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

thothptah wrote:

#28 | Back to Top05-24-2011 04:15:01 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

Dallbun wrote:

#29 | Back to Top06-02-2011 12:52:10 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#30 | Back to Top06-02-2011 03:51:01 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#31 | Back to Top06-02-2011 04:53:25 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

Chrome Homura wrote:

#32 | Back to Top06-02-2011 06:16:17 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#33 | Back to Top06-02-2011 02:21:23 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

Chrome Homura wrote:

#34 | Back to Top06-02-2011 11:58:39 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

satyreyes wrote:

#35 | Back to Top06-03-2011 06:13:02 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#36 | Back to Top08-01-2011 01:16:13 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

lily1307 wrote:

#37 | Back to Top08-01-2011 08:55:27 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#38 | Back to Top08-07-2011 03:18:28 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#39 | Back to Top08-07-2011 12:40:13 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#40 | Back to Top12-16-2011 08:28:18 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#41 | Back to Top12-17-2011 07:25:26 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#42 | Back to Top12-23-2011 02:13:57 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#43 | Back to Top12-29-2011 01:37:21 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

Chrome Homura wrote:

#44 | Back to Top12-29-2011 02:16:53 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#45 | Back to Top12-29-2011 02:50:45 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#46 | Back to Top12-29-2011 09:26:54 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

thothptah wrote:

#47 | Back to Top12-29-2011 10:41:18 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

Love wrote:

#48 | Back to Top12-30-2011 01:32:57 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

#49 | Back to Top12-30-2011 07:27:03 AM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

thothptah wrote:

Love wrote:

#50 | Back to Top02-18-2013 06:32:21 PM

Re: The mini-analysis thread - for those small revelations

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