I don't think he expects the same trick to work a second time. In their original duel he isn't sincere at all, he's just playing himself off as Utena's noble prince. Whereas in the final duel, he genuinely believes himself to be in love with her. He's not faking anything as strategy, he's acting out of what he believes to be real compassion. But he also knows that Utena's just not that into him, not to mention that Akio's thoroughly seduced her and she's attached to Anthy. I think his terms for the duel have nothing to do with the expected reaction and really are just what he states. He wants Akio's power, which means winning the duel to get Anthy. And he wants Utena, even if she'll hate him.

It's similar to the horse riding scene, he's acting desperate as a means to get what he wants without properly thinking things through. He's not being smart nor manipulative, he's being greedy.

Or at least that's what I think at 3 a.m.

I honestly always took his, "you become my woman" thing as a deliberate, calculated attempt to piss Utena off.  Not that he actually thought it would fly.

It makes sense on a symbolic level. Utena's second duel with Touga was called soi, self. Throughout the series she fights to make sure Anthy can live outside of other people's control; her duels with Touga are about freeing herself.

rhyaniwyn, I definitely agree that Touga isn't trying to prepare her for Akio-- while there are interesting parallels, to me it just doesn't fit overall. For one, even after their heart-to-heart, Touga just doesn't have anything comparable to the emotional leverage Akio has over her; it won't have that same feel of betrayal. Touga's "become my woman" spiel is just going to confirm that she was right all along about him despite their talk.

I really want to explore the idea that Touga's sabotaging his chance (assuming he had any-- the point is, I do think Touga thought he did) of winning the duel by goading Utena. I keep being reminded for some reason of Saionji and Touga's conversation just prior to Utena and Touga's talk at the dueling arena-- Saionji's already eager to escape the coffins/Akio's influence, while Touga tells him that "standing up is dangerous." Touga's warning him that they're on Akio's road-- and perpetually on his playing field. A valid point to make, but the fact remains that he's afraid of the consequences. And knowing the end won't exactly be fantastic for the victor, he's only prepared to try and save Utena if he decides she's worth it. Not princely behavior.

So by making that ultimatum, he manages to simultaneously back out of any hope of winning and still stay under the guise of attempting to nobly save her. And all it costs him is Utena's speck of trust.

I like it, but it's not quite enough to satisfy me. Maybe some more extrapolation is in order!

It is a good point that Touga is more cautious--naturally as a person compared to someone like Saionji who acts more on emotion and what he feels is correct, consequences be damned. The point's been made that Touga won't take control of Akio's car because he doesn't have a driver's license, while Akio is LEAPING ON THE GODDAMN HOOD(although this is neither here nor there, but this also may be perhaps have a deeper symbolism since cars in Utena are so fraught with meaning--perhaps he's unconsciously afraid of taking on the power Akio wields even though he says he wants it? Just not emotionally ready to be a driver in general and escape his coffin?). And Touga would also be warier simply because he has the most knowledge of what is going on. He knows he has to tread lightly because Akio's power in Ohtori is nearly god-like. Akio might see his challenge as a betrayal(wasn't the name Kiryuu from an ancient samurai that betrayed his liege lord?), but Akio is so far ahead of him in the game that this is either inconsequential or exactly what he wanted.

Giovanna wrote:

As for his little conversation with Utena...he basically says 'beat me or fuck me, you got two options.' He says it so bluntly, I always thought, to make sure there was absolutely no mistaking that bargain. The reason for it? Hmm. Those are terms that Utena, before she slept with Akio and lost her innocence thereby, would have either not accepted, or accepted with a fight. At least, that's what Touga thinks. He thinks he's demanding a price that the innocent little girl he fell in love with would have refused. The new and improved hymen-free one? She accepts, though not with delight. It's like Touga wants to rub in his own face that she's changed. Maybe he's not even sure whether he likes the change or not. But if someone can lose their innocence, can become a body to make bargains with...and still be a prince, still be worth something...well, maybe there's hope for him, too?

Touga's still a selfish ass. I don't think that changes. I also don't think he seriously thinks beating her will result in having her all to himself. (Or that he'd like it. The last thing Touga would want is a grudging partner.) We tend to think of his motives in this being based on what he wants to have happen to Utena. Maybe it's more internal than that? There's an air of futility about the duel, and Saionji at least, seems to know very well that if Akio doesn't want Touga winning, Touga won't win. And Akio doesn't want Touga winning. (He says he does, but in a shit-eating ridiculous smirking tone that suggests plainly he does not.) Touga would never admit he needs anything, so he thinks he's trying to save Utena from a gruesome fate. But I think his actions leading up to and motivating his last duel are more for himself. Something he needs to experience, see, get through, whatever.

Is it that he needs to prove to himself that Akio didn't destroy her? For her sake? Or maybe for his? Does he need to get beaten again to know the feeling and that it doesn't hurt as much now? Is a crushing defeat now how he severs himself from the game? (Worked for Saionji.) Maybe he just needs Utena to hate him. The night before was lovely, and just what his heart needed, but maybe his head demands sacrifice for being so weak. So needy.

I agree that Touga is not hoping to have an unwilling bed bunny out of this bargain. We can see from how we treated Anthy when he was the victor that he has no interest in an unwilling partner. Thinking back to that duel, I think the reason he so completely loses his shit is not JUST that Utena beat him and resisted his charms, but the fact that she did so rocked his entire world view. His entire understanding of the world is that the only thing that wins is power and guile, and anyone who believes otherwise cruising for a bruising. He may have even thought of himself as almost benevolent in a fucked up way--better for him to show you what the real world is like early on than continue to get your ass kicked. But Utena won through selfless sacrifice, through believing and trusting in other people. So if it's POSSIBLE for nobility to be a strength and not a weakness--to come out on top while still retaining a pure heart--then what does that say about him?

When he decides 'fuck it, too far gone anyway' and starts running the roads with Akio, I think this is why Akio mentally subduing Utena is so powerful to him. It's not just jealousy. It's Akio knowing that Touga has that doubt in his brain and subtly implying, "Oh, hey aren't I doing exactly what you were trying to do to her? Mentally subjugating her, turning her more into a princess? Oh, I'm sorry, does this DISGUST you? Does this make you feel like I'm destroying everything that's good and pure about her? THEN WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT YOU, HMMMMMMMM? What exactly are you, Touga Kiryuu?" Akio is good about making people feel disgust through his actions, like making Utena feel like shit for sleeping with an engaged man.

I think one of the most telling things Touga says the night before in the arena is:"Even if I'm not worthy of you." Early Touga may allow himself to seem humble for personal gain, but implying that he is BENEATH another woman is an entirely different story. He may be resolving himself to make her hate him because he thinks that by definition of who he is and what he wants, he is a corrupter of the innocent. He destroys beautiful things. This may be him denying himself what he wants because he thinks he will only destroy it. Perhaps the night before he's steeling himself not just to challenge her and possibly save her, but to purposefully destroy his chance at what he wants for her own good? I definitely agree that there's an air of futility to this duel. Perhaps it's a, "Fuck it, if you're going down, I at least don't want to be a part of the reason it's happening anymore."

It's also definitely possible that through dueling him again, he also knows she still is at least still pure enough of purpose to best him. That there's a sliver of hope, both for her in the arena and as a symbol for something. I think there may be multiple answers to this question, especially since Touga is obviously conflicted about who he is, what that means, and is generally desperately grasping at straws here.

OH TOUGA, YOUR SUFFERING IS DELICIOUS

Frau Eva wrote:

The point's been made that Touga won't take control of Akio's car because he doesn't have a driver's license, while Akio is LEAPING ON THE GODDAMN HOOD

I always took it to mean that while Touga thirsts for Akio's power, he doesn't quite know the nature of it yet. Touga's concept of power and how it's acquired is centered around abuse of an existing system. You game the game; that's how he wins his duel, that's his approach to dating, etc, etc. He broadly follows the rules of a system in place, appreciating that an intimate understanding of those rules is how one gets around them, while also realizing that keeping those rules in place is necessary to his approach. This will make him an absurdly successful businessman. He thinks this is also how Akio approaches power. The question, the offer of the wheel, seems to genuinely surprise Touga. He's admiring a man that games the system, and it hasn't quite sunken in that Akio does no such thing. He makes the system.

This is something Touga seems to be starting to understand later on, and I wonder if it's part of his eventual 'rebellion', and what finally motives him to graduate. Touga is power hungry. I don't doubt he'll continue to be a power hungry little shit in the real world. But he doesn't want power in a vacuum; he doesn't want a sandbox. Maybe by the time he leaves the school, he'll figure out something Saionji seems to understand already by the end; it's pointless to be powerful in a sandbox, with no real opponents. You don't prove yourself that way. Akio is a level 80 epicced toon with a flying steed. But he's still playing god damn Everquest while the world spins by. I don't think Touga in the show ever fully realizes that Akio is not powerful. Akio's power has borders. And those borders exclude the real world at large. He can't cut it out there, and that makes him, actually, pretty weak. But Touga starts coming to understand this, and goes 'Well screw that, I'm going to go outside and be powerful out there HATERZ GONNA HATE'

It does graduate him from the school, and it does mature him. A little. But Touga is not exactly a good person based on how most of us judge it. He'll manipulate and game the systems of the real world, profit from them, and be proud of it. He'll still use lots of women for lame emotional satisfaction at their expense. And he'll still use a lot of the nasty little tricks he learned from his mentor. But Ohtori Academy isn't designed to churn out princes only. It's a school, despite Akio's best efforts, and it churns out people. Sometimes, not terribly great ones.

Katzenklavier wrote:

Observe the pre-teen Touga with Utena and the coffin. Something about Utena's tragic situation moves him. But he still refuses to try and sway Utena from the coffin, claiming that there's nothing eternal. Those are profoundly jaded and cynical thoughts for someone his age.

I don't disagree at all that his actions stem from being prematurely jaded and cynical. And yet, these same actions are almost touching. He challenges Saionji to show her what she needs to see, because he cannot. Utena's world is dark and she's blind to any light within it. Touga, especially at this point in his life, maybe feels exactly the same way. Touga is more motivated than Utena at that particular moment, but he is as much prompting Saionji to show him something that makes life worth it.*

It's interesting that he claims to be a friend to all girls, the seeds of his art for subjugating them already being planted, but then makes no effort to direct this creature toward one choice or another. It's almost like he's respecting her and the validity of her question, and hasn't developed the hubris to assume he is the solution.

*I've always took their flashbacks to paint Saionji as a far more gentle and optimistic creature than Touga is. The kind of childlike innocence that, as CHILDREN THEY SHOULD HAVE. Touga does not. But...it must be nice standing next to that warmth. I think a lot of his attraction to Saionji was that. That he envied, if not admired, that Saionji was a child. Touga, or the life Saionji lives aside from him, over time corrupt that as life tends to, and I wonder if Saionji would have become less jaded and cynical in his blossoming adulthood if he'd not been subconsciously learning the part so well over the years.

Katzenklavier wrote:

He thought he had it figured out. The strong eat the weak. That's the brutal ugly cycle and he's smart because he figured it out early. Along comes Utena, of course, and smashes all his preconceptions. When Utena defeats him, Touga's reaction is way too severe to be that of a mere ego injury. No. His philosophy is shattered to bits. Or even worse, that means he's the one who is weak. For someone who has spent years and years becoming the predator instead of the prey, that's devastating. I'd bet anything that his sitting alone in the dark for weeks exactly mirrors what he did after he first became a victim.

Definitely. Not only does he learn that he's weak, but if Utena is stronger, there is nothing in his personality that he sees to build similar strength on. Touga doesn't see the prince in himself right then, even if we can argue back and forth over whether one's there. He's just been shown a power he cannot acquire. Akio 'saves' him from his deep depression by reestablishing his faith in himself, because Akio is stronger than Utena, and Akio is far, far more like him. In the end, Touga's discontent with things stems from that he likes Utena's power better, and thinks it should prevail. Even if it's not the power he himself can wield.

Ha. I would contribute something useful, but you guys have pretty much covered every angle on this one. There is one thing, though-- if you go by what Enokido said and assume the abuse Touga faced was sexual in nature, it throws the "you become my woman" thing into a bit of a different light.

In that case, the strong don't eat the weak-- they fuck them. And that makes a lot of sense with the way that he treats women and the types he goes after; as was noted before, the meek and the weak. Akio's behavior would have confirmed this to him as well.

This angle forces Touga to put people into some rough categories; he has to know who would and who would not be dangerous to exert his power on. It's most likely an unconscious thing, dividing people into necessary, entertaining, and prey. Saionji and Nanami are necessary. That doesn't mean he won't fuck with their minds, of course. He pretty brutally manipulates them into being dependant on him. He can't, absolutely can't, let them go. They're his source of sustenance. They have no idea how much he needs them. He probably has no idea how much he needs them. But he does know enough not to let them past his guard to where the real him is. The real Touga is something nobody can have, and it's safe behind years of defenses, cocooned in layers upon layers of denial and emotional negation.

Akio also falls into this category. Touga is wary of him, and for good reason, but Akio is necessary. And, like Saionji and Nanami, Touga will take any little foothold he can get to make Akio dependent on him. He wouldn't even think about it. It's just what he does with people who are important in his life. In this case, that little foothold is the sex. It's pretty sickening for us, but Touga would coldly know he had a way to bargain with Akio-- he fucks like a champion. He's got a lot of experience.

It doesn't work the way he wants it to, of course. Akio is way past those petty ploys. But Touga would be getting enough inside knowledge and ability to exert power over others that it wouldn't matter. And, at some point, Touga would convince himself that those advantages were what he'd wanted all along. Besides, fucking Akio is probably very enjoyable. Touga's probably detached enough from his real emotions that it doesn't bother him, and the idea that Akio fucking him was another form of the strong fucking the weak would very carefully never cross his conscious mind.

Anthy is also necessary, but he'd dismiss her entirely. Touga knows what she is, the doll with no heart, and he knows that he'll get no advantages from fucking her. And frankly, if the need for him isn't there, and he gets nothing for his trouble, there's no point.

Entertaining people are probably what he likes best, although he would spend more time on the other categories. Miki and Kozue fall into this category. Actually, the entire Student Council including falls into this category, though some are more amusing than others. Yes, Nanami and Saionji included. They're entertaining on top of being necessary. Touga likes to play with them from time to time, but most of the time they're quite entertaining on their own.

Utena was in this category to begin with. He was having so much fun fucking with her emotions, and you could see him savoring his win long before he ever got there. He assumed, as Touga does, that it would be easy to change her like he'd done with Saionji and Nanami, to mold her into a shape that would be pleasing to him. He was wrong of course, but you guys have covered that territory admirably already. Where I'll chime in is in his behavior towards Utena after she lost the duel. It immediately became predatory and fraught with sexuality, and he clearly enjoyed that she was "well-behaved" about his advances. He would have loved to have her submissive to him, and he probably had some ideas about warping her personality such that she could be the regal, noble tomboy for everyone else while the Princess was saved for him alone.

Oh, and to get her addicted to him. He wouldn't think of it that way, but that is what he does to women. He tries to get them addicted, so that when they don't get their fix he gets tearful messages on his phone, begging for him to come back to them.

These are the prey. As much emotional sustenance as he gets from watching Saionji and Nanami torture themselves for him, he still needs to go out and feed on the flock that always surrounds him. And we know from the messages on his phone that it's not always about the sex. Sometimes, yeah-- he and Kozue probably have some arrangement where if one of them wants to get their rocks off real quick, they call up the other. Touga's relationship with his prey is a little different from that. It's about love. Touga will fuck them, sure, but the priority for him would be the emotions he could evoke in them.

In this way, he's like a shadow of a Prince, playing the hero for all the women he conquers. He'll do whatever he can, be whatever he can, to make you fall in line. You can't even have that many people like you if you act like yourself all the time. It's kind of a given. But it's not enough for Touga until everyone loves him, and he'll do what it takes to get that. He's probably an extremely good social chameleon that way, the kind of person who knows exactly what you want to hear so that you'll give it up for him.

He's a strong person in the only way he knows how to be. His idea of being strong is to make everyone around him do what he wants them to do, regardless of the cost to himself. And yes, there is a cost. That strength comes at the expense of his true emotions, and it makes it impossible to reconcile the bits of his real personality with the one he's created for himself.

I think the reason he went into such a deep depression is because he realized that his strength wasn't sufficient. There was someone stronger than him, and it was just a girl, and all the things he had traded or eradicated in order to get that strength were gone and he wasn't strong enough and what the fuck. For someone like him, that's enough to break him. To have given up so much, to have warped his own personality so much, and then to see someone come along and easily outstrip him after having given up nothing at all. Someone who looked like something he could once have been, if he'd ever had Saionji's innocence or Nanami's protection.

I think there was a lot of despairing self-questioning going on then.

Akio's return to his life saw Touga trying to become even colder and harder. I'll bet it was very soon after Akio talked Touga out of his depression that they went to visit Saionji. Touga would want to reaffirm to himself that he was strong after all, and who better to start with? And then later, when it was Nanami's turn, things escalated quickly from suggestive words to attempted kisses. He would have gone through with it, I would imagine. It would hurt the fuck out of him to have sex with his sister after protecting her from that very thing for so long... but he'd do it. You don't get rid of the weaknesses by just thinking about them. You cut out your heart, and if it grows back, you cut it out again.

There were a few moments where his true self peeked through. His surprise when Nanami said she didn't want to live with him. His complete lack of protest when she shoved him away in the car. But in this interpretation, his actions show him as actively seeking out things that would hurt him, and when you do that, you're doing it to numb yourself until you can't feel anymore.

Problem being, it doesn't fucking work. And that's why he wanted that one night, and tried to stop Utena from reaching the final duel. His defenses were fragmenting all the way from ep 33 onward-- the real him was breaking through everywhere, and it was Utena that had caused it. He saw what he could have been in her, and once he had seen that, he was doomed to questioning himself.

The "you become my women" was another attempt at holding onto that cold shield. He would have thought of it as showing her his real self, as opposed to the one that had sat with her under the stars. After all, he bought that self fair and square. Just one problem: in the duel, Utena still turned out to be stronger.

But at least that ended the questioning and the fragmenting. And at least then he knew what he had to aim for in the future.

...this was a lot of words for having nothing to say.

Edit: And no, I'm not sure I entirely believe that this is correct. It's just a different interpretation (and probably a crappy one, I'm all kinds of tired.)

Last edited by Yasha (01-13-2014 03:29:58 PM)