I think, in the end, Utena gave up her prince in order to free Anthy, and in a way Utena did stop the End of the World by freeing her.  And the Shining Together I think was when Anthy could free herself fully (forgiving, loving, and accepting herself) Utena would be there waiting for her, without the binds of Ohtori...  That's the best I can describe it.

dabouse1 wrote:

Does a different thing pop up for different people if they manage to open it?

Mirror of Erised much? This would make sense though and I like it!

My post is spoiler heavy as well, and probably unclear for you who has not finished the series (you could see it on TV-Links if you really wanted to).

I think Akio's specific point of interest is unclear. Whatever was behind those doors for him was something he could not get alone and something he desperately wanted/needed. Utena's ruining his plans is proof that he was not yet infallible, so there's still power to be sought after and won for him. For all a little free will might be amusing in his pawns, I'm sure he'd give it up for knowing he was absolutely in charge. So my belief is he just wants to be God and has no way of achieving this goal other than making the duels, finding "the one who will bring revolution," and so on. For whatever reason, only someone else can attain "eternity."

Anthy, I'm inclined to believe, would just do anything for her brother. Based on what at least symbolized her sacrificing herself for her brother (holding up Dios' sword, getting stabbed a million times, etc.) I really doubt she had anything to gain from Akio's success except knowing he was happy as she herself, seemingly, would never be. Poor girl can't be a princess, feels swords of hatred in her organs constantly... There's not much 'could happen to out-happy that pain. Except Utena becoming her prince (or whatever she did) and freeing her from the coffin and whatnot. This might have made Anthy ecstatic and sort of overshadowed going back to the old ways for Akio's sake.

NajiMinkin wrote:

dabouse1 wrote:

Does a different thing pop up for different people if they manage to open it?

Mirror of Erised much? This would make sense though and I like it!

My post is spoiler heavy as well, and probably unclear for you who has not finished the series (you could see it on TV-Links if you really wanted to).

Thanks, I thought that website was down, but now I'll definitely have to watch more if the videos worked. I was going to have to order the videos from Amazon otherwise, and I'm low on cash right now (not to mention the Akio arc is nonexistent).

Paradox wrote:

The whole point of the duels is looking for that one perfect person.  Someone strong and pure enough to open the door, to bring the power of Revolution to light, but at the same time, with enough faith in him to return it to him.  He believes that by taking the sword from the heart of such a champion, he can open the door and reclaim what he feels is his.

Stormcrow wrote:

Actually, it seems to me that the whole thing is wankery on the part of Akio. I don't think he WANTS to bring the world revolution, or for anyone else to either. He just wants to want that. So he goes through this whole big farce, over and over again, to convince himself, and Anthy, that he's trying to save her. But he's settled into the game now.

I think these two points of view are closest.  My take on why Akio does what he does has evolved into basically the same as Gio's, and it goes like this.

After being stolen from the world by Anthy, Dios lost his nobility and became the debased Akio.  For Akio, the power to bring the world revolution means the restoration of that lost nobility.  Anthy is willing to serve him slavishly as long as she believes -- or at least can pretend -- that Akio is trying to reclaim his nobility.  Now, Akio has no genuine interest in becoming Dios again, but he has to pretend he does so that Anthy will stay with him.  So he sets up the absurd dueling system as an elaborate charade to make it look like he's trying to redeem himself.  He isn't, mind you, and Anthy isn't really fooled, but she lets herself pretend he's being sincere because she wants to believe it so much and because she doesn't know any other way to live.  As for Akio, he's not at all worried that he might actually succeed, because he thinks the idea that a real prince exists in the world is ridiculous.

Paradox wrote:

After being stolen from the world by Anthy, Dios lost his nobility and became the debased Akio.

It's been a while since I've seen the critical episodes here, but I've always attributed Dios' fall less to Anthy's actions than the people's violent reaction to what Anthy had done.  It was seeing her brutally attacked at the hands of the very people he had tried so hard to help that broke the noble spirit of Dios.  After seeing the world's horrific capacity for senseless cruelty, his fall begins from the noble but innocent Dios to the cynical and depraved Akio.

We don't have a lot of evidence either way on this one.  I meant "after" in the chronological sense rather than the cause-and-effect sense.

And let's not forget, ladies and gents, that manipulating misguided youths and fucking a fair lot of them is a very well enjoyed passtime of Akio's.

Actually it is a fair description of how Akio sees himself.

P.D.M. wrote:

Code:

[i]brian burned me with:[/i]
Actually it is a fair description of how Akio sees himself.

Thank you. Always great to post here to make myself feel like an idiot.

Aw, no, I wouldn't say that. I mean, what you said makes me tilt my head sideways so I can see what you mean. It's not how I'd naturally look at it myself, but it does bring up questions about Akio's sincerity and "earnesty," which is something he mocks Utena for having -- and himself, for once having. I think Akio is, one way or the other, searching for that other half of himself that he has "lost." Why does he want it? Is it so he can "defeat himself up until now"? Because that's also a running theme in the series: not only does one have to be able to see clearly what one is, one then has to turn around and defeat it. Or so they say. Accepting yourself for who you are seems to be the more constructive way of going about it, which is where Anthy's revolution comes into play. She's not the princess, she's the prince's sister, but that doesn't make her a witch. It makes her Anthy. And defining herself by herself and not anybody else is what allows her to walk out of Ohtori and find Utena on her own terms.

With that said, I think there's something to be said for Akio feeling pain at his sister's predicament. He's a bastard, but not entirely a selfish one. He knows she is there because she wanted to be, and he kids himself that it was her choice all along. But I think he understands quite well that he could have stopped her -- or at least tried. I think it's entirely possible that Akio justifies a lot of his actions by saying it's what Anthy wanted, i.e. their sexual relationship could never have existed if they were just brother and sister in the idyllic childhood garden. She wanted to be a princess he could save, not the sister he could not. And in Ohtori, he is the Prince and she is the Princess...but it didn't work out right. He still can't save her. And I think it would be unfair to Akio to say that he doesn't want to save her, one way or another. The irony of this all being, of course, that not even Utena (the light to Akio's dark) could save Anthy. No, the only one who could do that was Anthy herself.

It's a good question...

There seem to be a couple of genres of thought:

(1) The duels and revolution are all a big facade.  Either just an amusement for Akio and/or something he does to string Anthy along.
(2) Take the series at face value--Akio wants to reclaim some power he used to have as Dios without becoming Dios again.
(3) Akio wants to become a Prince again... To genuinely save Anthy or become Dios again.

There are a lot of weird things about Akio's "plan" that support the first interpretation.  The second is the least conspiracy-theory-esque.  The third is interesting--and is a take on Akio I had previously given very little thought.  I lean toward the 2nd interpretation, but I don't really discount the first or the third.

The things that most make me wonder about Akio's expressed desire to open the rose gates...  He doesn't seem too pleased about the appearance of Utena's heart sword at first.  Now, we see other heart swords in Black Rose, so that could serve as an indication that the duels were leading there and Akio may have been unhappy for some other reason that's not entirely evident to me.  But, ultimately, using a sword to open a gate makes absolutely no sense.  I mean, seems like he'd need a key or a battering ram.  I'm not exactly an expert, but I haven't heard of any cultures in which the sword was a popular choice for bringing down gates during a seige.  Most of the keys I've seen in my life haven't been quite sharp or straight, either.  He also seems to taunt Anthy with his intentions: "Maybe if I were trying to be a Prince like in the old days" and "The Rose Bride still belongs to me, next time..." and "I'll need your help to restart the rules of the rose signet..."  Then, when Utena opens the gates and begins to open Anthy's coffin, he panics--what would HE have done when he opened the door and Anthy's coffin was there?  (And would it have been there...is a good question.  I'm iffy :-)  It's magic, after all.)

However, if there were any possibility that Akio could regain a magical power he had as Dios without having to be Dios, I'm sure he'd be happy to have it.  Would he be obsessed with it to the degree he seems to be, though?  That obsession, to the degree it's genuine, is surely born from suppressed guilt.  On the flip side of the guilt is the resentment he sometimes manifests for Anthy and her pain--a defense.

It's easy to have conflicting feelings about oneself.  I'd like to give Akio credit for at least that much humanity.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (08-19-2008 05:05:30 PM)

He's most certainly a bad guy.  Token villain of the series.  He uses and manipulates people.  He lets his sister suffer unnecessarily for his own personal gain.  He rejects the very ideals I personally find most attractive in favor of a cynical, materialistic philosophy.  Doesn't mean there's not a reason for it, or that he doesn't have occasional suppressed doubts.

P.D.M. wrote:

rhyaniwyn said:
He lets his sister suffer unnecessarily for his own personal gain.

Now wait a minute(how could it have come to this...), that is not true.
It's exactly Akio's greatest tragedy that he can't do anything about Anthy's suffering.
The duels are the most he can do. Which kinda sucks when you think about it.

It's the "personal gain" part there. He might not be able to do anything about it, but for him to profit off of her pain and suffering? Definite bad guy material.

P.D.M. wrote:

rhyaniwyn said:
He lets his sister suffer unnecessarily for his own personal gain.

Now wait a minute(how could it have come to this...), that is not true.
It's exactly Akio's greatest tragedy that he can't do anything about Anthy's suffering.
The duels are the most he can do. Which kinda sucks when you think about it.

I believe you've hit on the exact point of Akio's character. He has changed, the world around him has changed -- but in the end, he hasn't changed with it at all. He seems to believe the greatest power is that which he had as Dios, and even though on the surface it looks like he's changed into this sex-charged manipulative long-legged older gentleman, at heart he still believes in miracles. He just doesn't believe they come true. Yet he won't accept it, otherwise why would he be chasing after the upside-down castle? Akio's screwed, basically, and it's because despite his behaviour he's not going forward. He's going around in circles. Which is, as Stormy puts it, ultimately quite pathetic and sad. He has considerable power, but it's illusionary and he can't seem to cope without that illusion.

Last edited by Clarice (08-20-2008 07:09:31 PM)