I personally think Anthy wrote whatever Saionji wanted her to write because he brought up to UtenaAnthy the fact that she wrote some big promise about eternity and stuff.  Actually, he brings that up when he confronts Anthy in episode 2, so I think while she was engaged to him that she did mostly write ear-pleasing stuff.  If it was outside of the engagement...then I could potentially see her doing something...subtle (unlike Utena's approach...hehehe)/

Charuru wrote:

Oh I could totally see that, suddenly Saionji's prickly attitude makes sense.

Could be, though I always attributed his prickly attitude to him being a prick. 







(sorry, I tend to revel in my own immaturity around this place. Dunno why.)

I always thought that when Utena and Anthy switched bodies, and Utena (as Anthy) met with Saionji to exchange the diary, it was kind of like foreshadowing the kinds of things Anthy really does... or something.  Utena was surprised about this, and it just made me think about how it sort of revealed something about Anthy that Utena thought she was not capable of getting herself into.  First the exchange diary, which is kind of seedy in and of itself, then fast forward to Akio x Anthy... am I the only one who saw it that way?  Lol.

PrinceoftheLostEternity wrote:

I think that, while they were engaged, Anthy would write whatever she figured he wanted to hear, but after Utena won her, her, as the song says "give a damn was busted". I'm thinking that afterwards, wnything that she wrote in the exchange diary had a massive dose of sarcasm and contempt in it, considering the fact that she probably knew that Utena's blind innocence would lead her to ultimate victory, so to say. While in the past Saionji assumed everything Anthy wrote to be her true feelings, I don't think he ever actually considered that her words may have just been the result of the mental programming of the Rose Bride persona that Anthy was living up to. After she became Engaged to Utena, Anthy no longer had to pretend to mean any of it, but I think she did seed a few encouraging words here and there just to fuck around with Saionji as payback for the shit he put her through. Y'know, make him hurt in a more than physical way. She would know more than anyone else how excruciating emotional pain can be in comparison to physical.

I agree with you there to a large degree, mainly as it being a form of payback.  And Saionji, the archetypal fool of the series, would not, to me at least, have any conception of what it means for Anthy to be the Rose Bride.  Of course she's going to say/write things that reflect a lack of will on her own though more and more it becomes clear that Anthy does have a will and she expresses it in ways which do not break the rules she most live by by being the Rose Bride.  I made a lengthy response to someone earlier elsewhere about this.  But everything Anthy really does is because she is what she is: the Rose Bride.  It's a matter of physics, so to speak, that cannot be broken, hence why only a world revolution which changed those laws could alter that confinement.

Excellent point, sir, and, building on that, may I just state that in my personal interpretation of the events, I saw Anthy's behavior as the Rose Bride more affecting the one she was engaged to rather than anyone else. I mean, sure, Anthy's responses and interactions would be predetermined by the will of her Engaged, but all in all, she could generally act with them in any manner that she wanted, especially with Utena as her Engaged. But as we saw with Miki, if utena were to ever say "Hey, don't do this-or-that.", then Anthy would immediately stop. It proves that, while she is the Rose Bride, she can at times be herself, which, to me, seems to be a vindictive bitch at times. Then aain, how many of us aren't?

Well, if someone rubs me the wrong way, I can be very crabby in general.  But having the world's hatred and blame on your shoulders via swords of hate, I think I'd be pretty pissy myself...especially if it was all because I took the blame for something when I was trying to be nice.  So yeah, I agree with your point.

Well, if she wasn't the Rose Bride, she would probably be living a normal life, being a normal person, and being around normal people, probably.   But even if she was under that position (ie. under Saionji), she would walk away like she did with Akio, probably...  But in any case, what she has to put up with is basically what many abused slaves in history had to put up with despite not having nearly that harsh a punishment (on Anthy's end) though bearing the swords seems to compensate above and beyond, I'd think.

Saionji's entry

Dearest Anthy,

You love me, don't you? You love me and want to be with me forever, right?
Our love is a deep hidden love of passion and mystery!
Now that I have you as my bride, we will be sure to be the ones to go the castle of eternity. There we will claim eternity. Eternally.
Forever you will be my possession, and eternity will be my possession too.
I will succeed, I promise you that, my lovely bride.
For ours is a deep and meaningful love as I'm sure you will agree.

Your beloved fiance,
Saionji

Anthy's entry

Dear Master,

Yes, I love you. Yes, I love you and want to be with you forever.
Our love is a deep hidden love of passion and mystery, exactly as you say.
Now that you have won me as your bride, there's every chance we will be the ones to go the castle of eternity. There we will claim eternity. Eternally.
If you keep winning me then forever I will be your possession, and eternity will be yours too.
Thank you for your kind promises to succeed in winning me and other prizes for yourself.
Ours is indeed a deep and meaningful love, according to all the tenants about that kind of thing from the council of the rose seal.

Your bride,
Anthy

PS I cleaned the toilet and made ramen for dinner, exactly the way you mother used to as you specified.

* * *

I don't think she bothered writing in the diary when they weren't engaged...it seemed like Saionji was begging Utena-Anthy to start writing in it again. And of course Utena wrote in it instead.

I like to think of Anthy as saying exactly what you want to hear, but in a way that makes it clear that you're an idiot if you stop to think about what she's actually saying. She doesn't try to be a great actress - she parrots back at people their party line. She gives them the bare minimum and lets them run with it.

IE her less than enthusiastic responses to being "happy together" with Saionji in front of the council, her response of telling Miki oh how much she wanted to play piano (a simple "yes"), and her impassioned (sarcasm alert!) response to Utena about wanting to be a normal girl when they were in front of Touga...she basically had to have it dragged out of her with some clear commands.

She enjoys making it clear that she has no will, but will tell you whatever you'd like to hear. She even rubs this in Akio's face at points...

You've got to imagine how shitty it'd be to have to obey a single person's EVERY command, to matter how ridiculous.

That's a great point, Prince, it would be pretty shitty indeed...

Not sarcastic when they were alone together having tea and she told Utena she wanted more friends...there's something gripping about that scene.

But when she told Utena that yes she wanted what Utena had just said re being a normal girl, in the bird cage in front of the baiting Touga. Anthy says the bare minimum she can there, and pretty much says whatever Utena prompts her to say (without Utena realizing it). Then of course she changes her tune after Touga wins her to Utena's utter shock.

And not sarcastic Hiraku - I said I was being sarcastic about Anthy being "impassioned" in that bird cage scene. She's the opposite of impassioned.

Yeah I am alarmed. *looks worried*
Although I suppose it means I like the way you think.

Yeah, I already basically had that as my personal canon.  I'm pretty sure Anthy doesn't like Saionji, has never liked Saionji, and always acts in a way to make sure he knows somewhere inside she doesn't care about him.  I think too much of that caused him to start abusing her, which made her hate him and act that way more.  I think Saionji's anger at her stems from the fact that he has this symbol of power and maturity, and yet, like he's always feared, it doesn't really belong to him, he can't really comprehend it.