I don't know about that. First he's shocked that anyone could beat him, and then he falls for her once he realizes she's not gonna fall all over him like most women. In short, I think he loves her because he admires her first. Furthermore, he doesn't try to do anything lecherous when he confesses to her and lets her go when he's defeated for the last time. If Akio had not tempted him with power I think he could have been a better person much sooner in the series. Of course, that's just my opinion.

I think maybe he loved the idea of her rather than Utena as a person. But I think the way he tries to ambush her in the last arc isn't really a loving action, he is just trying one last ditch effort to hold on to his ideals, to be the one to save her, when she really doesn't want him to. I don't think he really takes the time to love her as a person, because if he did, he wouldn't have gone into the last duel with her in the way he did.

I think maybe by the end he is starting to wish he could be a better person, to be someone who could love her. But I think he realizes at that point what an ass he'd been, and that he admires that she is the real deal.

....I think Manga Touga may have loved her more. He does go and tell her who Akio is, and I always sort of thought that Anime Touga did not have the balls to actually tell her who the end of the world was. If he had done that, risking his own relationship with Akio to help her, then maybe I could believe Anime Touga may have loved her. That would have been a sacrifice. As it is, Anime Touga risks very little of his own skin to save her.

As it was I don't think he had enough time left in the series to grow enough into the kind of person who could love her.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Touga admires Utena.   Respects her.  Wants to be more like her, both for the innocence she holds that he once had, and for her strength and honesty, all things he finds lacking in himself.  In a way,  Utena is Touga's Prince.  But Touga's chauvinism gets in the way.  Men don't admire women.  They don't emulate them.  They love them, and they save them.  Re-directing his feelings for her into romantic love protects Touga.  It protects him from truly recognizing the things in himself that he lacks, from the idea that a woman has changed and helped him by putting her and him in to the much more familiar and socially acceptable princess and prince dynamic.  He wants to stop Utena from winning in order to protect her because he loves her, when in reality he wants to stop her so he can save the things about her he desires that Akio will surely finally take away.

I think you have a point, OITL. It's really interesting to watch Touga and Utena's relationship evolve through the series. It seems like it changes when Utena wins against him, after she loses. At first he just considered her "another girl" to conquer, but as the series progresses, she fails to fit into any category,

When Touga says "You're my only princess," I think he's revealing something very telling. Princes aren't expected to have just one princess, are they? Especially not Touga, who is such a playboy as we see. I think what he's saying is that Utena is the one girl, or the one person, who he really admires, perhaps the only person he respects besides Akio (who he might not respect all that much). Except he has to sublimate that through romantic love which probably he doesn't really feel.

Saionji can see something's happened to him:

Touga:  Oh really?! You sound so smart, Saionji.
Touga:  You know that much about me?
Saionji:  Hell yes. You're arrogant and haughty, and full of confident ambition.
Touga:  Hey now, that's not a nice thing to say.
Saionji:  That's the kind of guy you are. You play the gentleman, but you've never really loved anyone, and you see everyone else only as pawns to be controlled. That was your strength. But can that sword of yours defeat her now?

Note "That was your strength." I also wonder if Touga didn't tell her who ends of the world was because he thought it might throw her off, and make her lose. Read this scene between him and Akio, from the previous episode:

Akio:  Looks like I won the game.
Touga:  Nope. It's a draw.
Touga:  She didn't like the present after all. Just like I thought.
Akio:  She was bewildered. Maybe you didn't pick a good gift-
Touga:  There was no mistake in the choice of gift. Besides, they suited her very well.
Akio:  I'd love to see that. She's supposed to become an attractive princess after all. Not a Prince, but a princess. I'm sure you agree.
Touga:  Well now. Who knows.

Akio, despite his greater experience, is too petrified (in both senses of the word) to believe that someone could get the better of him, or be his equal. Especially a 14-year-old girl. Whereas Touga is young enough that, although he can't acknowledge a woman could be better than him, he's at least open to the possibility in some way.

Le necro.

I so need some Utena discussion as a breather from finals, yes yes.

Charuru wrote:

I agree with Riri-kins completely. Saying that Touga is incapable of really falling in love, is just too mean. Yes, Utena inspired in him admiration, but why can't that be a source of real love?

I'm not saying Touga is incapable of feeling love, not at all, but that at this point in the series, whatever feelings he does have are muddled by his own chauvinism and deeply hidden, in fact, almost untouched, insecurities and concerning Utena are misinterpreted and redirected into something they are not.  Love can grow from admiration, or the admiration itself can be a part of love - but the point I was trying to make is that this admiration of Touga's has only grown into a platonic love, which Touga doesn't really understand. And can you blame him?  I mean, look as his parents and how attractive he was even when little... love as something other than a method for achieving one's desire is almost unheard of for him.  Nanami truly does, in a very strange way, love him, but even this he sees as her loving him for own selfish reasons.  He sees no actual merit in it, which is why he's so false in his affections for her. 

Romantic love, however,  is described in great detail in all the stories, so he knows all the steps to take and moves to make, and has the nice added bonus of putting him in a dominant, and thus emotionally protected position.  Platonic/Romantic love are not the same thing. 

Besides, there are plenty of people who admire Utena in Ohtori.  You can admire a person without knowing anything about them, or admire them for select things.   What separates love from simple admiration is loving that person in their totality -truly accepting and even loving their flaws, their talents, and even those mundane things inbetween such as how they lick their thumbs before turning a page.  Touga doesn't know any of Utena's little idiosyncrasies as well as he believes himself to.  He can admire her easily enough, in his mind, love her from afar, but as a couple....how was it Gio put it?  All would be well until she walked across the living room carpet in her muddied cleats. 

Take it in contrast to Utena and Anthy.  By the end of the last episode, Utena knows Anthy's flaws, and they are none too small and cannot in any sane way be passed off as endearing....and loves her anyway.  There is something about Anthy, flaws and all, that makes Utena happy beyond what they both feared was simply a case of being a princess to her prince. 

And I still stand by that Touga's love for Utena was selfish (to an extent, all love is, but his in particular).  The reason he loved the things Utena represented moreso than all the other living,  breathing people that came across her was because those are all the same things he lacks.  Saving her symbolically saves himself, in his eyes.  But once he fails to do so (once again, from his own perspective, and not Utena's) he doesn't really try all that hard.  He takes her loss of innocence and nobility at the hands of Akio and Anthy as a sure thing, just like it was for him, because deep down he is a pessimist of the highest caliber.  He doesn't hit on her any further because there is nothing to gain from doing so. 

If his love had truly been romantic and unselfish, had been based on something more than simply admiration and a desire to complete himself, then he would have sacrificed for her.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (12-08-2009 08:34:07 PM)

Interesting point.  I can't say what I would do that would work, but that's the thing.  Touga is right about his chances of success, but he won't even try?  Imagine if it were Utena... she would have no concern for whether or not it would work, she would relentlessly and misguidedly plow forward to try and help....she's a fool.  Touga's ability to calculate outcomes and act accordingly is both his strength and his weakness, because he may be able to help those or himself in situations, but he won't ever be able to understand the sake of doing something or standing up or believing in something for the sake of itself. 

But I will retract the whole thing about sacrifice, since there really isn't anything he could sacrifice, except for maybe his pride...?

Taking what you say into account, it could totally be love he is acting out of, just... like I still believe, a platonic love, not a romantic one like he thinks.



AND DO U MEAN HIS BODY GIO???  8D

You know what...someone...and I dun know who, should write a fic in which Touga tries to use his money and his family's status, among other assets, to sway Mrs. Ohtori into rethinking Akio's position as Chairman....and call it "Small Pond."

Giovanna wrote:

Of course, he might also have expected failure, making it a largely empty gesture. So we still don't know if he was acting out of love or not.

He could have been acting out of love but still expected to fail, a la Kierkegaard's knight of infinite resignation. Or perhaps he's a knight of faith, and believes they will be together in another life...

which means I have to start another thread...

For me, it's very hard to see Touga's failure to inform Utena of EOTW's identity as anything other than petulance. Which proves nothing really about whether he "loved" her. In fact, I find the question to be largely semantic in nature. If you think that love requires you to put the needs and desires of your love object above your own, then I can't accept that he loved her. I don't think he was ever really willing to give anything up for Utena, or even seriously considered the possibility that he should. Granted he didn't have the power to stop Akio, if he had any balls, he could have at least made him find another tool.

On the other hand, if love means very strong affection, admiration even, desire... he may well experience all of those. It might not even be entirely selfish, but I don't think Touga has the emotional maturity to recognize that he was being selfish. In fact, he may have thought he was being generous by pursuing Utena. Didn't all women want him? I imagine for a while he even thought her refusal was just playing hard-to-get, and that she was secretly into him the whole time (to be fair, she maybe was a little). I think that part at least has disappeared at the end, and he may recognize that Utena is something different from all the other girls. I think he really didn't get that until then.

So whether that adds up to love depends on your definition.

minervana wrote:

It would be interesting to get a Japanese speaker in this thread. When Touga says "I love you" in Episode 36 (if that's indeed what he says), what words are he using? How serious are they in Japanese? Are they what you say to, for example, a sister, or a lover, or a friend?

Ah, I might totally be making it up in my brain, but I'm pretty sure he used "aishiteru," which is pretty hardcore(now I want to go back and watch that episode to make sure). Most people use "tsuki" when they love each other(including people who are dating), but can also be used for your favorite ice cream. Given how reserved the Japanese tend to be, him using anything farther up from "tsuki" is really damn serious.

The thing that has REALLY got to me is the whole "If I win, you become my woman" thing. Because it's Touga. He knows his way around the ladies, and he knows exactly how disgusting that's going to make him look. Even in the beginning of the series, he was never THAT much of an asshole; it's not the words of a playboy who wins women through sweet words, and even his body language and facial expressions are far harsher and meaner than he ever was with her. He simply has way too much social know-how to do something like that and mean it, expecting to get it. And even then, Touga's a douche, but he doesn't want an unwilling fuckdoll. He doesn't want to come home and have sex with a woman who despises him for putting her in this position and thus make her hate him even more. It's an insane proposition all around if it were true.

It's a diversion. If he came out and said he was going to try and win in order to sacrifice himself, she would resist and he would almost undoubtedly lose. If he can throw her off the path, make her think that he's doing it for completely selfish reasons, make her HATE him, then she's not going to examine it. He knows Utena isn't the brightest when it comes to people's motivations and intentions. She's going to fight, and if she loses, won't feel bad if she thinks he's just getting what he deserves in the end, and move on with life after the duels. I think that Ruka and Touga's similar character design and council position was intentional. I mean, it's a pretty similar gambit. And if you think of it in the context of the night before, of him accepting that night as the last time he can be with her and it being "enough"...and then pulling that dick move the VERY NEXT DAY? He knew what he was planning would destroy that possibility utterly(whatever little of it was there in the first place). And while Touga may be very rusty on being good and unselfish, I think what he's basically attempting to do here is just that.

And really, if everyone else is transformed so much by the end of the series, why should Touga be any less? Because him just being nice to Saionji isn't the main crux behind his issues, that just takes care of Saionji. Everyone tends to assume that he just keeps on being a womanizing jerk, and while he may need more polishing, he had to have made a great personal change towards happiness like everyone else.

TOUGA YOUR SUFFERING IS DELICIOUS. He's accepted that he is not a prince, but perhaps a knight...to put himself in danger for the courtly lady he cannot have.

Last edited by Frau Eva (12-11-2009 10:54:37 PM)

I agree with Frau Eva.

I think Touga does love Utena. Some people may say he's fooling himself, but it doesn't seem like it to me.

Anyway, it IS at least clear that he is very attracted to her, and it's also very probable that the feeling is mutual. Not just when she thought he was her prince - only before Akio overshadowed everyone else. She's almost always become flustered when Touga involves her in something.

I think Akio made her sort of forget about everyone, even Anthy, but especially Touga.

Saying the relationship would never work isn't entirely true, I don't think... you'd just have to get Utena to admit that she likes Touga, which would take some doing.

Katzenklavier wrote:

"And you will be mine for all eternity...now I will retrieve the sword that will lead us to our destiny. Bend over."
"Yessir! Do you mind if I lick your princely boots while I'm down here?"
"Well, only because you asked nicely. Be sure to use extra saliva around those scuff marks, princess."

I lol'd.

TougaxAnthy wrote:

No, Touga loves Anthy.

Again, I lol'd. So many lolz!


Sorry I don't have anything else to add to the analysis/discussion... but reading this thread did make me look at Touga's final duel in a way I hadn't considered before. Thanks, IRG!

Katzenklavier wrote:

Your whole dissection, Gio, has made me wonder what a finale would look like with Touga there instead. Just gotta picture it...

"And you will be mine for all eternity...now I will retrieve the sword that will lead us to our destiny. Bend over."
"Yessir! Do you mind if I lick your princely boots while I'm down here?"
"Well, only because you asked nicely. Be sure to use extra saliva around those scuff marks, princess."

That was awesome. We need fanfics and fanarts of this now!

I think the person I agree with most on this thread is OnlyInThisLight. I think Touga might love Utena, but in a really messed up convoluted sort of way. He definitely doesn't love her at the beginning of this series; he loves the Power of Dios. Most of his interactions with Utena consist of screwing with her head and making her think that he's her prince so he can win his duel.

Later on it seems that he admires her and that her influence has changed his life, but he still puts her on a pedestal as a princess. He doesn't truly love Utena, but rather he loves an idealization of her as a princess. I think it's possible that his love for her is more platonic than romantic like OITL said but he convinced himself that his love is more romantic because his chauvinism says that men are supposed to love and save women, not admire and be influenced by them. I think the idea of Utena as Touga's prince is very interesting. She does influence and help a lot of people so maybe Utena is everyone's prince.