KissFromARose wrote:

I'm curious though, how do you guys feel about it? We've drank the Utena Kool-aid, but are there some tweaks you'd make to change pacing?

I snort the Kool-aid.

But it's true that episode to episode the pacing got fairly repetitive, especially in the BRS. I'd say the pacing was fantastic with regards to the larger overall plotline, with the bigger revelations happening a good distance from each other, and when they'd make sense. A lot of shows from that time period suffered from sudden ending syndrome, where a huge character arc gets compressed into a comparatively short period of time. Trigun is the first example that comes to mind, but Escaflowne does the same thing, and if you asked me, objectively, what the 'most perfect' anime was--Escaflowne would be my answer. SKU is longer than either of those, true, but length didn't seem to save shows anyway. SKU paces the main storyline very well. I actually wonder at times what Touga's not having to be scarce would have changed that way--sometimes the way Utena interacts with Akio in the BRS seems to me like it was meant to be a contrast to Utena's present relationship with Touga. It works without that, but it leaves you to figure out the difference on your own--not hard, but that demonstration would have been a very fascinating addition to the BRS, which is, as you say, on its own, super formulaic.

The repeated sequences, I honestly just skip now. I've seen them, and though I get the point of them as something meant to create a ritual and a lack of reality, that doesn't make them interesting the 1000th time. They are also a deliberate reference to shoujo anime in particular, with its habit of having these transformation sequences repeat in every episode, where by this ritual the character is imbued with power, and typically some level of maturity, that isn't theirs day to day. (Usagi isn't typically quite as much of a fucking klutz for example.) It's cleverly used in SKU to illustrate, literally, that elevation of the character. That addition of something important that isn't entirely their own, or at least isn't typically a feature of theirs--it's a distraction from the fact that the whole show, for everyone*, is itself a drawn out transformation sequence.

Also, they had ridiculous crazy money issues with the production of the show, so rationalized however you like, ultimately this wasn't something they had a choice on. I don't blame them for it. As for the BRS, I do sort of wish Mikage's story arc had been sprinkled more across the episodes, instead of saved for the end. As it stands, it's probably my least favorite arc to watch, and the one I'm most inclined to pick and choose out of sequence. That said, Wakaba's episodes in it are one of the high points of the show, period.

satyreyes wrote:

I'd have loved to see the mystery of Nemuro Memorial Hall spread more evenly through the arc, more hints of Mikage being batshit insane, more insinuation that Mikage and Akio aren't strangers.  In short, the rest of the show keeps me on the edge of my seat better than the Black Rose Saga does.  But that also makes the Black Rose Saga delicious comfort food.

More than 'not being strangers', I'd kill to see Akio and Mikage rolling around in bed. Even if it made precious to no sense, I'd still want it because, reasons.

On a more serious note, I agree that the BR arc was something of a missed opportunity and would have benefited from being spread out across the others. And I always felt that having everyone forget about it at the end added insult to injury. I understand why it had to be so but it adds to the feeling of uselessness that already pervades that particular arc. But in a way I cannot help feeling that it creates something of a complicity between the viewer and Akio and Anthy. At the end the audience and the Ohtori siblings are the only ones who know just what happened, it almost establishes something of a meta-narrative as one wonders whether Akio has partially staged these duels so that we, the viewers, could see them.

(( Hey all,

Hope everyone's having a good end-of-year-celebration stuff.

Anyway, maybe the pacing is part of the whole effect that the Black Rose arc is trying to get across.

The pacing is formulaic and trudging.  And, in doing so, it does, quietly suggest that some things shouldn't be rushed.  One of the overall themes that I've always felt was included in Utena was that growing up and maturing is a process... it doesn't happen overnight.  So... for me, I always felt that the Black Rose arc was a way to tell both Utena and the audience that growing up shouldn't be rushed.  Worse, some of the methods that the characters use to catalyze themselves from being young to adult are... some of the more dangerous coming-of-age aspects of maturing.  For example, Tsuabuki wants to be an adult, so he can be with Nanami.  And...  Tsuabuki sort of "takes" Nanami in a movie theater that is playing a romantic movie.  He even says something to the effect of, "Now I'm a man".  Shoot, Wakaba locks herself in her room with Sanonji, with a lot of similarities to a vamp or noir femme fatal.

Anyway, both of these sexual coming-of-age events, are talked about in high school and college, and both have the "oooooh, so-and-so did thus-and-such, now they're so mature!"  Shoot, even Utena mentions it to Wakaba, in the Wakaba's-day-in-the-limelight episode.  But... none of these events really matures someone.  They jump a number of pages in the story, yet, none of them really understand what they did, what happened, or why they might now be upset or more easily manipulated.

So... now, contrast these quick-and-dirty ways of becoming an adult, with the slow, repetitive, trudging pacing of the Black Arc, and, for me, it illustrates that all these schemes and machinations don't lead to maturity.  And, for me, I think that was the whole point of the "duel-of-the-day" style story-telling in the middle arc.  Becoming an "adult" cannot be done overnight... it has to be earned by taking the long road.

Does that make any sense? ))

I love the Black Rose Arc... even the pacing and repetitiveness...there's something so bleak and hopeless about it, like everyone's strings are being pulled.
IFUKNOWATIMEAN

It's like this really dark twist on the monster of the week shoujo trope.

Gio, what color is your snot? Is it pink kool-aid powder? when did it stop burning?

I did, when possible, skip the stair scene for my first time viewers, but mostly for me. I don't seem to remember Usagi taking all that long to transform, but i could be wrong and I havent seen Sailor Moon in a while. . . I think the worst of it is just *how long* it takes. Its fine that it repeats some things, but jeez. Mokushi Kushimo Shimoku Kumoshi Moshiku Shikumo x1000...

I 100000x agree with the Mikage plot part. If they'd have hinted at his insanity and given you the ability to try to piece it all together as it goes along, that would've made it so much better. BRS is one of my favorites of the series just because the mind-fuck that is Anthy, Mikage, and Wakaba were just brilliant. But, as i mentioned, watching it with this friend made me realize just how boring it could be if you aren't drinking (or snorting) the kool-aid.

I can totally understand skipping BRS, satyr as Utena is unusual in its 39 episodes rather than an even season's worth. BRS does have a lot of little tiny moments that are important like [oh, Anthy definitely is visiting her brother and its kind of weird sometimes] and [just how the hell did she get that hair pin] and [wait it was anthy all along, now i can't trust her!] But, these could've been condensed down. Almost wish you could make a new viewer friendly version...

As to your point Nocturnalux, with everyone forgetting BRS, it really does hurt it, in a way. I almost wish we could've seen Utena and maybe others struggle to remember it, or pieces from it break through... but maybe that would have ruined Utena's innocence/ignorance. Having determined Anthy was up to something odd would have played more into the final arc as to why Akio was able to distance the two of them. Also, as to your point about some bed action -- you should've seen the Doujin in Japan... next time i visit i'll have to pick it up and send it your way ;) maybe its cannon, we'd have to look to make sure

Caroline, you bring up a really good point. If that is true, i'm afraid Ikuhara sacrificed other viewers for that point... which, honestly, knowing him that is probably the case. Though i really love how we explore the characters in BRS. I can't stop talking about how deep the Wakaba arc cut into me. Seeing that formula play over and over again to watch "the onion prince" get shut down by Mikage? Man that was brutal! Then to just see this crazed Wakaba giving in to this rage just tore me up.... then she walks away from it, and its just gone! Utena notices these beautiful shining things in Wakaba, and then its all forgotten. How tragic!

Yampuff, your point would really hammer home for me if Utena had made just a slight comment about it in the show... like a second to say, "shit what is going on, why is this happening?? how do we stop it??" It would have pulled the audience in to being more aware of the repetition as a device rather than "wow they are lazy and use the same fighting scene and finishing move over and over again and stairs and then this elevator?" just nothing was new after the first few episodes. Harsh on viewers!


I'm also curious as to how i avoided all of this? Was i just hooked on the Utena kool-aid as i watched it and didn't care what happened? The one thing I remember is I got spoiler'd on the internet about Utena getting shanked by Anthy. I saw the picture and was totally pissed and confused and wanted to bitch slap anthy. I had no context as to what had happened -- I just wanted to power through the show to see what that scene was about. So I feel like i didn't get the full experience by knowing that *something* happened, and i needed to know why.

All in all, i'd like to see someone make a condensed version so I could show it to friends, get the major plot points, force them to watch the entirety of Wakaba Arc & Mikage Arc, then move on without feeling i have to beg my friends on through the end.

Also: I would pay mountains of money to get more of those two arcs, they were so damn good.

Nocturnalux, that point you've made a couple times about complicity is really interesting.  You're right -- that killer shot of Akio and Mamiya/Anthy at the end is by itself worth a few episodes.  Is it worth ten episodes?  IMHO, no, but it's certainly true that we never quite see Anthy the same way again.  I think a lot of the questions we've asked about Anthy on IRG, questions like "is her suicide attempt genuine?" and "does she see Utena as her prince?", can be traced in some way back to that moment.

KissFromARose wrote:

Yampuff, your point would really hammer home for me if Utena had made just a slight comment about it in the show... like a second to say, "shit what is going on, why is this happening?? how do we stop it??" It would have pulled the audience in to being more aware of the repetition as a device rather than "wow they are lazy and use the same fighting scene and finishing move over and over again and stairs and then this elevator?" just nothing was new after the first few episodes. Harsh on viewers!

It takes them a long time to get around to that, doesn't it?   Utena complains all the time about the "stupid duels," but I don't think we really get commentary on the repetition until the very last duel before Revolution.

UTENA:  How many times have I fought with you here?
TOUGA:  This is the third.
UTENA:  How strange... it feels like we've fought so often...

It's a memorable exchange, and we've dissected it on the forum before.  There's a hat-tip to the cycles in which the duels move, an acknowledgment that Utena has been symbolically fighting Touga in a lot more than three duels, and so on.  Your comment made me think that there's something else going on here too: the series is finally getting around to commenting on the device of repetition in the duels.

That said, this is not exactly the first time the theme of repetition has arisen.  Literal and metaphorical vicious cycles are all over SKU's symbology, from the spiral staircase that leads to the arena, to the perpetual motion machine in the last ED, to the Shadow Girls' robot that catches monkeys and never grows tired, to Dios's merry-go-round, to the use of the word "revolution" right in the show's OP while two girls spin around inside roses.  From one point of view, the whole show is about a girl who frees herself from a millennia-old vicious cycle of abuse and self-hatred.  So you can argue that an alert viewer doesn't need to be told that the duels present the implicit question, "how do we end this?"  But that sure is a question that Utena herself ignores for the entire show.  (Ironically, in the BRS, it's the Student Council trying to stop the duels.)

I never really appreciated the Black Rose Saga very much until I rewatched the series in late 2015 (it had been at least a decade since I'd watched the show in its entirety, and probably half again as long since I'd originally seen it).

It IS a bit jarring and weird and, in its own way, out of place. But I think a show as character-focused as Utena really shines in these episodes, deconstructing not just these side-characters, but the main cast that they're paired up with (and while Keiko's story doesn't really involve Touga much, it's still a fascinating episode in its own right, and I agree with the comment above that it's an underrated one).

I do agree that spreading out the mystery of what's going on with Mikage instead of relegating it to the very end would have been a better way to do things, but this is the same arc where the show is also introducing the slow-burn mystery of Akio, and where Anthy's more sinister side starts to show, and I think making an equal amount of time for what's ultimately another side-character (even if he's mirrored off of Utena herself) would have diluted the show a bit too much.

Last edited by Rikoshi (01-04-2016 05:05:00 PM)

Rocko52 wrote:

- I'd say my biggest realization was how it actually reinforces the conclusion of The Black Rose Saga to a degree. That might sound odd but hear me out. Both the other recap episodes summarize several key plotpoints from their respective Sagas - duh that's what recap episodes do. The Black Rose recap is dedicated to the Nanami episodes though...which while certainly key to her character far from summarize what the Saga was about. (Most of the stuff touched upon is from the Student Council Saga too!) But when you take a step back...doesn't that cement what we saw in the previous episode? Mikage has been "graduated" wiping away all the student's memories of him - even Nemuro Hall's facade disappears and seemingly all connections to the Black Rose Duels are effectively cancelled out. So it seems to me the choice to make the recap episode of purely non-Black Rose material was a very deliberate one - it reminds us that a lot of what happened in this Saga effectively didn't happen. (Although much of the psychological effects are still left over)

Mmm hmm, I agree -- you can't recap what didn't happen.  The choice to put a recap episode at the end of the Black Rose Saga at all is a bit of a strange one, if you ask me.  Sure, it's cute and silly and maybe that's what we needed between grimdark episodes 23 and 25, but we could have had a new Nanami episode instead of a recap.  The use of a recap episode about Tsuwabuki highlights two things:

1) The disconnectedness of the Black Rose Saga from the rest of the narrative
2) The fact that Be-Papas was running out of money

And also

3) The fact that Tsuwabuki is no less insane than anyone else in the cast

...which, I suppose, is good to know.

The episode does actually add several more levels to Tsuwabuki's insanity. That part where he fantasized about becoming a cow with Nanami...just...just...alright then.

Also - the fact that most of his plans revolve around endangering/hurting Nanami in some way to make himself look better to her, tie in to the recurring themes of misogyny and how many men use/hurt women to prop themselves up and somehow think the woman will owe it to give them what they want. Although seemingly more innocent here (but let's be honest - this episode makes the kid look way more batshit than before) it also makes a nice parallel to the decidedly not innocent ways that this principle also applies to Touga and Akio.

Rocko52 wrote:

it also makes a nice parallel to the decidedly not innocent ways that this principle also applies to Touga and Akio.

Especially Touga, who is Tsuwabuki's role model.  Eww.

I take your point, Ash.  We didn't need Episode 24 to know that Tsuwabuki is certifiable.  But let us remember that this is a show that includes:

- A guy who believes that a girl is in love with him because it makes him feel superior to his best friend, and also he hits her and kidnaps her a lot because, hey, it's love
- A girl who believes that a guy is in love with her because it makes her feel superior to her best friend, and hurts her whenever she can in order to feel better about herself
- A girl with crippling guilt and resentment issues who is emotionally dead except when she's eviscerating her best friend or playing surrealist livestock-themed pranks on schoolchildren
- A guy who hallucinates ghosts onto real people, suffers arson-related amnesia, and stabs children with foliage as part of a convoluted plot to murder a girl by proxy
- A guy who has sex with his sister, has sex with teenagers, has sex with his fiancee's mother, and is an unsafe driver

...To name a few.  So when I say "Tsuwabuki is no less insane than anyone else in the cast," I'm saying that he clears a very high bar.

Interestingly enough, the Black Rose arc may be the most popular portion of the series, if its availability on Right Stuf is any indication.