I don't know about Japanese folklore and mythology, so it's fascinating to read about these forest spirits/demons. Gives me a little more perspective into that one Anime where the raccoons kill people with their inflated nutsacks. SKU is certainly an interesting amalgamation of European and Japanese mythos; in that sense, I feel it's truly unique in the medium. Wish I had more to contribute. Thanks for the cool analysis, Frau Eva.

CoffinBreaker wrote:

On a semi-related note, Akio's last name is very much a reference (or so I believe) to the fenghuang, the chinese phoenix (called ohtori in Japanese).

That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm uncertain about the Chinese version of the phoenix, but according to Auntie Wiki, there is a phoenix in Japanese mythology that is also an immortal bird. Interpreting the phoenix purely from a western perspective, the phoenix dies in fire but rises up renewed from the ashes. Dios died, and Akio rose up from the ashes of Dios. Works for me. Although it seems unusually straight forward in comparison to the rest of Utena's many themes and references...

Frau Eva wrote:

they are definitely emphasizing that Utena and Anthy have both been taken by some negative supernatural force--both to the dueling arena, and at the church that day. This could serve as a metaphor for Ohtori in general, really.

I really love this! The idea of running off or disappearing has come up in enough anime that I noticed the word they used was different, but I never knew why. Eerie how true it is, without anyone knowing why. Saionji in particular seemed rather stunned by the term. I always figured it was a response to just the whole 'running away' thing, but his reaction makes more sense in the context of a Japanese kid having superstitions.

Frau Eva wrote:

If you're interested in this and have access to JSTOR(if you're a university student, most likely)

....satyr?

crystalwren wrote:

CoffinBreaker wrote:

On a semi-related note, Akio's last name is very much a reference (or so I believe) to the fenghuang, the chinese phoenix (called ohtori in Japanese).

That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm uncertain about the Chinese version of the phoenix, but according to Auntie Wiki, there is a phoenix in Japanese mythology that is also an immortal bird. Interpreting the phoenix purely from a western perspective, the phoenix dies in fire but rises up renewed from the ashes. Dios died, and Akio rose up from the ashes of Dios. Works for me. Although it seems unusually straight forward in comparison to the rest of Utena's many themes and references...

The phoenix is one of those things that supports the idea of a collective unconscious. Pretty much every ancient culture has some form of the phoenix in their mythos--almost always a multicolored or golden bird, almost always immortal through self-immolation. Interestingly, what that means varies from culture to culture, but the story is startlingly similar whether it's the Chinese mythos, Egyptian, any number of Native American, etc, etc. It's a story people like, and probably a better way to say he's important than for Akio's last name to be 'Christ'.

I think this might explain Saionji's weird jump-to-conclusion about what brought her out of the coffin. He could have just thought that an adult gave Utena a rousing speech or something. But the consistent use of the term kamikakushi put it in his head that something supernatural actually occurred--something that Touga has some sort of access to. And the weirdness that is Ohtori just cemented this idea that there is something supernatural out there he does not yet have access too.

Giovanna wrote:

The phoenix is one of those things that supports the idea of a collective unconscious.

As is the vast amounts of mythology describing an unnatural place held in stasis, manipulated by deific personifications of nature and illusion. Of course, that one has a far more obvious explanation; people going missing everywhere all the damn time. Rather than considering the worst, it was often more convenient to imagine a sort of dream world waiting room that contained absent souls. Scottish folklore has a wealth regarding the Unseelie. Fallen princely characters from the ranks of the Sidhe populates those tales, and they tend to specialize in snatching off the young and idealistic to adjoining time-static realms. There's one very interesting story where a prince's consort must go to bed every night in her own coffin. An influence? Probs not, but the disappearance into the magic realm archetype is prevalent in both these and the Japanese myths. No doubt Ikuhara was inspired by at least some versions.

Giovanna wrote:

It's a story people like, and probably a better way to say he's important than for Akio's last name to be 'Christ'.

And hey, wouldn't you know, believers in the Trinity and thus the hypostatis of Jesus (essentially meaning his pre-birth existence) refer to him as the Logos. Logos is a Greek word for, well, words. In the rhetoric of Aristotle, it connotes a persuasive argument from reason, the other two being pathos (influencing the listener's mental state) and ethos (affecting their emotions and trust). Akio adeptly uses all three. Okay, so it's a bit of a stretch, but .

Reading, rereading and rewatching....

The prince may use the power but he is used by it, the latter being true for the princess and witch (and Akio)-but the witch uses that which uses her but in a negative way. Utena seeks to use power without being used by it yet not be a tyrant.

Love wrote:

The anime and manga reference that a lot, but it gets lost in the translation and cultural differences sometimes.

They should have made translator notes. Even if it's as an extra.

It was published in the US in the late 90s in a mangazine called "Animerica". In the era of flipping and name-changes. What did you expect?

crystalwren wrote:

That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm uncertain about the Chinese version of the phoenix, but according to Auntie Wiki, there is a phoenix in Japanese mythology that is also an immortal bird. Interpreting the phoenix purely from a western perspective, the phoenix dies in fire but rises up renewed from the ashes. Dios died, and Akio rose up from the ashes of Dios. Works for me. Although it seems unusually straight forward in comparison to the rest of Utena's many themes and references...

...That works too!

The thing about the collective unconscious is new to me, but that would make sense. In general, the names of all the characters are much more deliberate than any other series I've seen; I'm pretty sure there's a name-dissection thread around here somewhere, tho.

Some of them are actually quite straight-forward (relatively). There aren't many like that, since they didn't want us getting lazy with our vast Oriental foreknowledge, but some.

The Ohtori=Phoenix thing isn't as straightforward as people think. He's getting the name by marrying into what seems to be a fairly matriarchal family. In essence, he's exploiting the feminine element to reclaim his masculine pride, a pattern and contradiction we see in every aspect of his life. A fairly deep result, IMO.

IOW, he's a hipster. :p

Also, I don't think I would have thought of this on my own, I love these forums.

And I miss webrings, archive.org makes me sad.

Edit: Maybe not, duellists.tj is incredibly primitive even by 14-year-old-me standards.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (02-04-2012 02:15:11 PM)

Crystalline_Dream wrote:

Anthy hesitates slightly during the game of rock, paper, scissors for the bed. She puts her hand out as "rock" only after observing Utena and Nanami's hands. I wouldn't have noticed this if I didn't pause the screen at the exact moment that only Utena and Nanami's hands were in the frame.

There are two Anthies. The impression from the initial run-throughs, and the creature that arises after the repeated viewings of the hopelessly obsessed. The more you know it's there, the more you notice the tiny little details that hint at her near-omnipresence. For instance, in Keiko's BR episode, there's a point where the henchwoman is longingly staring through a window at Touga. Look closely, and you'll see Anthy glancing at where Keiko will be BEFORE she even appears in the frame.

Last edited by Katzenklavier (02-05-2012 03:52:48 AM)

Something that I noticed my last rewatch, and is really obvious this most recent rewatch: Anthy's subtle kindnesses as opposed to her more overt passive aggressive malice.

First it comes across that the only thing she cares a flying fuck about are her animals, her brother, and Utena, but if you're watching closely you can see that there are times when she's almost compassionate. The most obvious is her regret over Mikage, but when it comes to Miki, for example, she's almost tender with him. She uses and manipulates the fuck out of him of course, but afterwards she's downright gentle with him. When Kozue makes the move on her she's obviously sad. I'd argue that it's for Miki's sake. And I've no doubt that she had a hand in both 'miracles' that put Juri out of the equation. Anthy could have been a hell of a lot nastier about getting her to lose the matches. And it's rather amazing that bad things didn't happen to Juri, considering that she slapped the crap out of Anthy just before the first duel. Anthy sure as hell went after anyone else that pissed her off. It's understandable that she was extremely cruel to Nanami, but her cruelty towards Kanne was just horrific.

It's interesting that the more I go over SKU, the more layers of Anthy I see.

I've noticed that guys in Ohtori have a tendency to not dress up for parties. I don't mean the main cast, but just look at the extras in some party scenes. The girls are wearing dresses like you would expect them to at a fancy party, and the guys are just hanging out in their uniforms.

Like here, for example:


And here:

Last edited by HonorableShadow (03-01-2012 06:59:56 AM)

HonorableShadow wrote:

I've noticed that guys in Ohtori have a tendency to not dress up for parties. I don't mean the main cast, but just look at the extras in some party scenes. The girls are wearing dresses like you would expect them to at a fancy party, and the guys are just hanging out in their uniforms.

I think obviously the explanation is that the boys' uniforms are so gorgeous and flattering that no further decoration could possibly be needed or desired. 

Overlord Morgus wrote:

Ohtori can also mean "decoy" in Japanese. A little too obvious...

I only noticed this after going through Mobile Suit Gundam and hearing them say "Ohtori" in connection with "Decoy."

Close, but not quite   The word you're hearing is "otori," with a short O.  To Japanese ears, that's going to sound rather different from "ohtori," with a long O.  English doesn't really have a vowel length distinction, so any comparison is ill-fated, but you might compare it to the difference between words like "era" and "error" in American English -- they sound similar, but anyone who's paying attention can hear the difference.

Still, they do sound similar, and the "otori" meaning is obviously pretty awesome, so hey, if you like it, run with it! 

Last edited by satyreyes (03-04-2012 12:15:20 AM)