This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top01-31-2007 11:11:49 PM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

Seven

..
I have information on the Seven Virtues and the Seven Sins
I have the Seven Fallen Angels along with their respective sins, but do not have the Arch Angels and their respective Virtues.

Any information on any of the Angels or sins would be greatly appreciated.


May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy it be granted Glory.

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#2 | Back to Top02-01-2007 05:43:31 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Seven

I assume the fallen angels you're using are the ones Peter Binsfeld came up with in 1589?

Wikipedia wrote:

Lucifer: arrogance (pride)
Leviathan: envy
Satan: wrath
Belphegor: sloth (laziness)
Mammon: avarice (greed)
Beelzebub: gluttony
Asmodeus: lust

To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, they have no direct counterparts in the heavenly host. Not to mention that Satan semi-equals Beelzebub, Asmodeus and Lucifer. (Restraining urge to go on Lucifer rant!)

One place I know there's a direct counter between archangels and fallen angels are in the Holy and Unholy Sefiroth. But the catch is there's 10 of each, not seven.

Each sefiroth is associate with an archangel and fallen angel set in opposition:

Archangel    -    Sefiroth    -    Fallen Angel
Metatron      -   Crown       -    Thaumiel
Raziel          -   Wisdom     -    Chaigidiel
Tzaphqiel  - Understanding -    Sheireil
Tzadqiel      -     Mercy        -     Gog Sheklah
Khamael     -    Strength    -    Golab
Mikhael      -    Beauty       -    Togarini
Haniel        -     Victory      -    Harab Serap
Raphel       -     Splendor   -    Sammael
Gabriel       -    Foundation -    Gamaliel
Shekinah    -    Kingdom    -    Lilith

Of course, they don't properly link up with the Virtues/Sins at all.

There are seven major archangels, though they aren't directly associated with the seven virtues. And just who they are is also debatable. A Dictionary of Angels has nine differing lists for them. (According to: Ethiopic Enoch, Hebrew Enoch, Testament of Solomon, Christian Gnostics, Gregory the Great, Pseudo-Dionysius, Geonic Lore, Talismanic Magic and The Heirarchy of the Blessed Angels) For an example, the Testament of Solomon list goes as such:

1. Mikael
2. Gabriel
3. Uriel
4. Sabrael
5. Arael
6. Iaoth
7. Adonael

Then there's the celestial order of angels called Virtues, which isn't a correlation to the Seven Virtures but shares the name. In that, the ruling princes are: Uzziel, Gabriel, Michael, Peliel, Barbiel, Sabriel, Haniel, Hamaliel, Tarshish. (Of course there's nine of them, so probably not helpful.)

There's also seven angels and seven archangels (sometimes overlapping) for the days of the week. And Seven angelic governors of the seven planets. And... I'll stop now.

Honestly, depending on what you want this for, I'd suggest just making up something that sounds good. That's all Binsfeld did!


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#3 | Back to Top02-01-2007 06:42:08 PM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

Re: Seven

I'm doing this just for fun...
so really ANYTHING you give me (as long as its truthfull) *gives wary look*
I'd be happy.

BTW: thank you lots for the information etc-loveetc-loveetc-love


May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy it be granted Glory.

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#4 | Back to Top02-01-2007 08:08:19 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Seven

Happy to help! Any excuse I have to pull out A Dictionary of Angels is a good one.

Syuo wrote:

(as long as its truthfull) *gives wary look*

Well, what is truthful? The truth is that Lucifer's an angel up in Heaven, not one of the fallen angels. But that's not the widely accepted version of what Lucifer has become. When it comes to angels, the truth is just whatever someone convinced people it was. (Which sounds like a very devious thing to me.)

All I can say is, the information I have wasn't made up by me. emot-wink Whether Gustav Davidson or any of his sources are telling the divine truth is hard to know.

Since I haven't bored you yet, the angels and archangels for the days of the week are given as:

Monday: Archangel - Gabriel / Angel - Gabriel
Tuesday: Archangel - Khamael / Angel - Zamael
Wednesday: Archangel - Michael / Angel - Raphael
Thursday: Archangel - Tzaphiel / Angel - Sachiel
Friday: Archangel - Haniel / Angel - Anael
Saturday: Archangel - Tzaphiel / Angel - Cassiel
Sunday: Archangel - Raphael / Angel - Michael

And the governors of the seven planets:

According to Al-Barceloni:

Raphael - the Sun
Aniel - Venus
Michael - Mercury
Gabriel - the Moon
Kafziel - Saturn
Zadkiel - Jupiter
Sammael - Mars

According to Barrett, The Magus:

The Sun - Raphael or Michael
Venus - Anael or Haniel
Mercury - Michael or Raphael
The Moon - Gabriel
Saturn- Zaphiel or Orifiel
Jupiter - Zadkiel or Zachariel
Mars - Camael or Zamael

Also the angel Rahatiel is Chief of the Planets

The angels of punishment:

1. Kushiel (rigid one of God)
2. Lahatiel (flaming one of God)
3. Shoftiel (judge of God)
4. Makatiel (plague of God)
5. Hutriel (rod of God)
6. Pusiel or Puriel (fire of God)
7. Rogziel (wrath of God)

The archangeles of punishment:

1. Kezef (angel of wrath and destruction)
2. Af (angel of anger and the death of mortals)
3. Hemah (angel over the death of domestic animals)
4. Mashhit (angel over the death of children)
5. Meshabber (angel over the death of animals [non-domestic, I'm assuming])

And, because Silent Hill in part got me interested in this stuff, and used a number of these:

The seals of the seven angels who rule over the one hundred ninety six provinces of heaven:

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/aratron.jpg Seal of Aratron, the alchemist, who commanded seventeen million six hundred and fourty thousand spirits.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/bethor.jpg Seal of Bethor, who commanded twenty-nine thousand legions of spirits. 

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/phaleg.jpg Seal of Phaleg, the War-Lord.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/och.jpg Seal of Och, the alchemist, physician and magician.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/hagith.jpg Seal of Hagith, transmuter of metals, and commander of four thousand legions of spirits.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/ophiel.jpg Seal of Ophiel, who commanded one hundred thousand legions of spirits.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/phul.jpg Seal of Phul, lord of the powers of the Moon and supreme lord of the waters.

(Images taken from here.)


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#5 | Back to Top02-01-2007 09:51:41 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Seven

Ragnarok wrote:

Happy to help! Any excuse I have to pull out A Dictionary of Angels is a good one.

I totally read the original post at work and went 'OOO OOO I GET TO PULL OUT MY BOOKSES', and you totally just beat me all to hell. etc-love


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#6 | Back to Top02-01-2007 11:53:18 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Seven

I must purchase this book.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#7 | Back to Top02-02-2007 05:03:32 AM

Almaser
Qualified Duellist
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 727

Re: Seven

I think I saw it in the secondhand bookstore today *will be going there tomorrow!*

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#8 | Back to Top02-02-2007 06:18:07 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Seven


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#9 | Back to Top02-02-2007 03:17:49 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Seven

Giovanna wrote:

I totally read the original post at work and went 'OOO OOO I GET TO PULL OUT MY BOOKSES', and you totally just beat me all to hell. etc-love

Strictly speaking, your analysis of Akio is part of what pushed me to buy the book in the first place. emot-biggrin

I've been thinking about this too much and now I want to assign angels to the virtues. But first I'd tweak the sins' associations, get Lucifer out of there for starters.

... Someone stop me.


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#10 | Back to Top02-09-2007 11:56:45 PM

Almaser
Qualified Duellist
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 727

Re: Seven

Gio, Ragnarok... my wallet hates you emot-gonk

Mybrain, however, wants to bear your babies etc-love The book is so damn comprehensive!

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#11 | Back to Top02-10-2007 12:49:21 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Seven

Ragnarok wrote:

Strictly speaking, your analysis of Akio is part of what pushed me to buy the book in the first place. emot-biggrin

Awesome. cool

Ragnarok wrote:

I've been thinking about this too much and now I want to assign angels to the virtues. But first I'd tweak the sins' associations, get Lucifer out of there for starters.

DO IT. Wait a few hundred years and they'll publish you as an informed source just like the other dead guys. emot-biggrin


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#12 | Back to Top02-10-2007 05:21:31 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Seven

Giovanna wrote:

DO IT. Wait a few hundred years and they'll publish you as an informed source just like the other dead guys. emot-biggrin

These "informed" sources seem to have made it up as they go along! emot-gonk

Belphegor for instance, isn't lazy. He's an inventor demon who inspires people to create things (a la technology is evil, I guess.) Or else he's closer to the sin of greed, enticing people to invent in the pursuit of wealth. Why Binsfeld assigned him to Sloth I don't know, but he seems to be alone in that, save those who took his list for granted.

I've been trying to come up with plausible connections and I'm three for seven right now. Far too pleased with myself for Pride/Humility. Envy underwent a lot of tweaking.

But if, centuries later, people read my stuff and say "What the HELL? This guy didn't know what he was talking about!" it'll all be worth it. emot-dance


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