She says she was very surprised when she saw the last seen of the movie.

The last scene? People must regularily turn into cars in Japan  because after that scene my brain was like this the whole time and the kiss was just a sweet way to end it. (I'm kidding of course. About the first part anyway, not the latter part)

Come to think of it, with Anthy trying to get into Utena's pants after the first duel you think it would be obvious where the relationship was going.

Utena is attracted to Touga for the same reasons she's eventually attracted to Akio. Why, then, would outright rejecting Touga be such a step forward in her development? Why then would the duel be called "Self," and explicitly deal with Utena assuming a (feminine) identity which is false for her, and be resolved by her rejection of it?

Akio is lying through his teeth even better than Touga is, and she's deluding herself. In "Ends of the World," Akio paints a picture of Utena as a princess to his prince. Earlier, he complements her for her girly outfit. Both of these things Utena totally rejects. PART AND PARCEL of her attraction to Akio is her belief in him as a Prince -- these things are inseparable -- and that is shattered, because Utena is the Prince.

In the end, in the very end, she could give a shit about Akio. All she cares about is Anthy, and being a prince for Anthy so that she can be saved. She doesn't even give a damn about Dios when he appears. I don't see anywhere in the last two episodes any evidence of her even attempting to placate Akio, much less her desiring him anymore. She's wholly dedicated to Anthy.

An attempt at general clarification: what I've been attempting to argue is not that Utena is conclusively attracted to women within the series, hence I'm not sure that "burden of proof" applies. What I've attempted to establish is that it is a totally plausible possibility (which is supported by the fact that the creators saw it fit to discuss "whether they should kiss or not" in the first place). My argument is a difficult one because I'm chained to trying to use words like 'bisexual' when what I'm really trying to talk about is how sexuality is portrayed. What I've attempted to prove is that in Utena, it is far from binary, and that it is not accurate to talk about any of the characters as having a fixed sexual identity, for reasons I outlined in the other thread.

The evidence for Utena being attracted to only men is this: 1) the "normal girl" comment; 2) her attraction to Akio and Touga; 3) her comments about her relationship with Anthy. I think if you take Utena's character in context, 1 cannot be taken seriously (because the series shows us she is not normal) and 2 is all-around a gross mistake. In regards to 3, this only deals with her relationship with Anthy, not her potential attraction to women, which is open-ended.

Re: Anthy, though.... again, I am not doubting that within the series, they are relatively platonic. I'm only saying that Utena/Anthy is a totally realistic future prospect, and that it is to some degree implicated by the series. I hope that's clear.

What is this quote? I skimmed the script for episode 36 and I couldn't find anything like that. (But I'm very hungry and tired right now, so that's my excuse.)

Maybe it's episode 35? It's her quote to Juri specifically saying she loves Anthy, but her love isn't like Juri's love for Shiori (i.e., sexual love).

*laugh* Maybe they're laughing because they are amused at the idea of confusing us.

I remember Ikuhara as saying that he "wanted to see it."  Which is like, he thought it'd be sexy or sweet or something, not like "it was a necessary culmination of their relationship, which is partly defined by their mutual sexual attraction."

And Chiho Saito saying they should be treated like a married couple, well....

I must again refer to my own life.  My best friend and I treat each other like we're married in a lot of ways, and we do say we would be 'married' if we were lesbians (or one of us were male).  We are often treated by others as if we are dating or married.  I get significant other shotgun priviledges in her car, and vice-versa.    It is, as we tell people, "just a thing", a fact that others must accept.  Someone cracked a joke about us being "life partners" not too long ago.  (And do NOT get any impression that we have a perfect friendship, or that I think it's perfect... it's not.  It's just pretty damn great.)

I agree that I don't see any evidence of sexual attraction on Utena's behalf.  When she says to Juri that her feelings for Anthy "purer" than Juri's for Shiori, I took that to mean, "I'm not sexually attracted to Anthy."

Though I think there's a lot to imply that they might someday end up there after the series.  I mean, they are only about 14, so there's plenty of time for Utena to realize she's bisexual or a gay.  I still don't think it's the case, but it's a valid possibility for certain. 

As for Anthy's attraction, I don't know.  I think Anthy's sexuality is really warped (I've been thinking about doing a post with my half-essay about Anthy's personality from a perspective of abuse).  It's probably the only way she knows how to show affection or gratitude.

Episode 37 wrote:

Juri:  And it's pathetic, but I've got my hands full with my own problems even now.
Utena:  Are you talking about Shiori-san?
Juri:  Why is it?
Juri:  Why can't I have any control over my own feelings?
Juri:  What will you do about Anthy?
Utena:  What?
Juri:  You love her, right?
Utena:  Well...it's not like your "love".
Utena:  Mine is pure, and...well, I guess yours is pure too, but...
Utena:  But I can't...Himemiya...
Utena:  any longer...

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (12-12-2006 11:27:50 PM)

Syna wrote:

Akio is lying through his teeth even better than Touga is, and she's deluding herself. In "Ends of the World," Akio paints a picture of Utena as a princess to his prince. Earlier, he complements her for her girly outfit. Both of these things Utena totally rejects. PART AND PARCEL of her attraction to Akio is her belief in him as a Prince -- these things are inseparable -- and that is shattered, because Utena is the Prince.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with pretty much all of that. Utena doesn't reject Akio, she would be happily screwing him if it didn't mean giving up on Anthy. She most explicitly does NOT get attracted to Akio because she believes him to be a Prince. That's what Touga does in the Student Council Arc, and Akio specifically eschews. He presents himself as a normal guy and seduces her as a normal guy, seduces her in fact away from her prince ideal, something that the series explicitly deals with multiple times and both Utena and Akio refer to.

And Utena is not the Prince. The Prince doesn't exist.

An attempt at general clarification: what I've been attempting to argue is not that Utena is conclusively attracted to women within the series, hence I'm not sure that "burden of proof" applies. What I've attempted to establish is that it is a totally plausible possibility (which is supported by the fact that the creators saw it fit to discuss "whether they should kiss or not" in the first place).

It's not really supported by that at all. Ignoring that canon couldn't care less about authorial commentary, the fact a guy with a very well-documented fetishisation of lesbians says "I wanted to see these two girl characters kiss" doesn't mean there's any reason to believe said characters actually wish to kiss.

I mean, c'mon, if Robert Jordan wrote Utena and said "I wanted to see Utena spank Anthy", would you take that as hard evidence Utena has such a fetish?

The evidence for Utena being attracted to only men is this: 1) the "normal girl" comment; 2) her attraction to Akio and Touga; 3) her comments about her relationship with Anthy. I think if you take Utena's character in context, 1 cannot be taken seriously (because the series shows us she is not normal) and 2 is all-around a gross mistake. In regards to 3, this only deals with her relationship with Anthy, not her potential attraction to women, which is open-ended.

And I must disagree again. There is nothing "not normal" about Utena other than what Akio inserted into her life. The entire point of the series is that she is no hero, no shining ideal, no Prince, but a human being, with flaws and foibles. A young, naive human being. She appears as a hero, a not-normal person, in episode 1. That is a lie, a carefully constructed illusion by Akio to put Utena where he wants her to be.

You brought up Wakaba's duel before, but Wakaba's duel explicitly proves Utena is, in fact, normal. Because Wakaba could be Utena. Wakaba could shine JUST like Utena could, because she does. There's nothing "special" about Utena except her confidence in herself (and the fact Akio smooths her path).

I feel this is an incredibly important, repeatedly spotlighted lesson of the series, and I'm honestly startled you think Utena became the Prince. Utena loses when she declares herself to be becoming a Prince. Akio smugly points out she didn't become a Prince in the last scene, and he's not wrong about it. What Akio is wrong about is in thinking that matters. It doesn't. It's Utena the human Anthy follows; and Akio the would-be Prince she leaves behind.

As for 2 and 3... it may be a gross mistake, but it's the gross mistake she wanted to make. And I can't believe that if she was attracted to women, she wouldn't feel any attraction to Anthy. There's too much sexual overtone in their relationship for the thought not to cross her mind unless she was completely uninterested.

(And if she was so thoroughly and completely uninterested in Anthy sexually that being "engaged" to her, living with her, and sleeping in the same bed with her doesn't make her at all feel like being in a sexual relationship with her, how is any later sexual relationship plausible?)

Re: Anthy, though.... again, I am not doubting that within the series, they are relatively platonic. I'm only saying that Utena/Anthy is a totally realistic future prospect, and that it is to some degree implicated by the series. I hope that's clear.

I see what you're arguing. I just don't find it a realistic future prospect, because I don't believe Utena has any sexual interest in girls.

I'm slow. Regarding the quote that's already been posted by now:

I don't know how accurate the translation is, but from that it doesn't seem like Utena's saying she's straight, so much as she's saying Juri's screwed up. Foot in mouth syndrome. That's my interpretation, anyway.

Moving on:

About commentary I mentioned earlier, when the movie was being discussed.

According to the translation:

Ikuhara: When Utena turns into a car, don't you feel like you want to own that car?
Mediator: The fans?
Ikuhara: No, me. What's important is that I want that car. I'm the one who's making it.
Saito: So you want to ride that pink car that's named Utena?
Ikuhara: Yes.
Mediator: So you had your heart set on bringing that in at the end.
Ikuhara: I did.
*pause*
*laughter*
Ikuhara: Why do you look speechless?
Saito: And so Anthy rides it?
Ikuhara: Yes. Because at that point the two were "Go Love!"
Saito: They were?
Ikuhara: Isn't that how they were in the movie?
Saito: When I saw the last scene of the movie I was quite speechless.
Mediator: You were trying to express that riding they become one. Is that the symbolism?
Ikuhara: Yeah I guess. I really don't remember.
*laughter*

Although that's not the conversation I was thinking of. It must have been earlier.

Last edited by Ragnarok (12-12-2006 11:36:51 PM)

"It's not like your love. My love is pure, and, well, I guess your love is pure too, but..."

I really can't see that being uttered with the intent of saying that "Juri is messed up", honestly.

Yeah, I have to agree that's an interesting line. Ikuhara would never give a straight answer about it, though. He gave one straight answer about Utena once, and that was it.

Syna wrote:

Also, do you have any other quotes from her besides the "don't get me wrong, I'm a normal girl, I want a boyfriend" quote? Which specifically deal with sexual attraction? Because I'd hold that in suspicion as well. Utena is no normal girl; the series spells this out for us many times, most notably in Wakaba's duel. The rest of the quotes I'm aware of deal with Anthy, and my opinion on that I've shared already.

Er, I don't know whether you could count these, but have you noticed that Akio asked both Anthy and Utena what they thought of each other and how they both avoided answering it straight.
The scene with Anthy was the teacup scene in the BR Arc, I think... I don't remember which episode. And the scene with Utena was in ep34. Quote:

"Akio:  It must be hard on you.
Utena:  Huh?
Akio:  Anthy. I understand.
Akio:  It must be tiring being friends with her for so long.
Utena:  Not at all. On the contrary, it's a big help having her around.
Akio:  Really?
Utena:  Himemiya's an important friend to me.
Akio:  What is a friend, to you?
Utena:  Well, so...it's someone important, right?"

Another thing note about this scene is that you see Utena blushing as she says the last line. It's not because she's with Akio, in fact, you see Akio making his moves right after that. I think this shows that neither Utena or Anthy could really decide what they felt for each other. That, or they wouldn't admit their feelings to themselves or others. I think this means even they couldn't  really understand their feelings towards one another. This is however reveals very little about the nature of their feelings. On Utena's side, it's at least friendship. I don't dare say what Anthy could be thinking about it since she seems to deny any and all feelings till the end.

My personal thought on this is that whatever their relationship was, it went beyond "love".  It was something much more pure than that. At least from Utena's side and she tried to show that to Anthy as well. I guess you can call it 'friendship' or whatever. As for them having a sexual relationship, I think has a potential, but most likely after the series.

And regarding proof... I think the opening and the ending credits have a few things to tell about the nature of their relationship, but they're still rather ambigious so it doesn't answer many questions. :/ Hehe, in fact while the opening might imply a platonic relationship then the ending for BR Arc and the rest of the arcs says something else.

Blade wrote:

Syna wrote:

REJECTING her attraction to the only males she is attracted to = Utena kicking ass at dueling = Utena being who she truly is. That's why I think this is suspect.

I don't buy that. She doesn't reject Akio. She still wants Akio up to the very end and would be his Princess. But she chooses saving Anthy first. That's why she loves Anthy, and ultimately, not Akio.

Question. When does Utena remember about promising to become Anthy's prince? I've always thought it was that very moment when she was about to become Akio's princess. Is that right? I want to know.

Blade wrote:

And Utena is not the Prince. The Prince doesn't exist.

Also, Anthy is not a princess. The prince and princess are merely archetypes (is that the right word?), they are illusions controlling their lives. Utena was a lot like a prince, surely there are other people in the world who could have similiar characteristics and nobility. Would that make them princes? I think it's much easier to see that Anthy is no princess. Yes, she needs to be rescued since she seems to be doing nothing for herself. A lot pf people may be in a similiar situation where they don't know what to do so they'd need help from someone else. But once you look at every aspect of Anthy then you have to admit that she was at least partially responsible for what became of her.


Gaah, so many posts in such a short time! You people are gonna make me late for school this morning!

Syna wrote:

...except that, IMHO, she realizes Akio is the sort of person to control, manipulate, and exploit everyone around him and let Anthy suffer as a result. Akio is an exceptional liar; he paints just enough of a nuanced portrait, inserting just enough truth into the lies, that he is utterly convincing. That doesn't mean he's what he appears to be.

I'm afraid here is as close as I'm likely to come to saying "No. You're wrong."

Utena, knowing that Akio is behind the duelling game, knowing that Akio has lied to her, that he bangs his sister, that everything else... still embraces him. Utena still wanted him. She knows he's the person to this and that and the other thing as you say, and she does not care. Just like she didn't care that he was engaged to someone else, and just like she didn't care he was banging Anthy except to get jealous of Anthy.

If Akio had lied to her and told her he would save Anthy if he could gain the power of Dios, she'd have been his princess forever. I think that's very clear.

Then why does he paint such a portrait of idealized fairytale harmony in the end? Why the remarks that Utena is beautiful, that she will make a beautiful princess? Why in the end does Utena lie on the ground, wounded, revert to her princess gown, and when she finally gains the resolve to do what she needs to do, change back to her dueling outfit, signifying a rejection of the princess ideal?

Because that's long after he seduced her and he's doing something entirely different. Once again: Akio seduces her as a man, not a Prince. Akio specifically seduces her away from her princely ideals. They both refer to this specifically, and Utena even gives up her ring because of it.

Why does he deliberately try to feminize her on numerous occasions, the same way that Touga does? Akio just does it a lot better.

And when Akio does it, she likes it, something I think you're ignoring.

I beg to differ. Dios lived, once. Dios still lives, in a form, and his legacy is passed down through Utena - through his spirit in the duels, through his sword (which is eventually replaced by Utena's). Dios was very much a living being; he lived as much as Akio lives now. That he, as he is, can't be sustained in the tainted world he lives in, is something that the series drives at - and I don't doubt that Utena is in the end very much a human being, and that she sort of fails. But that's where so much of what's inspiring about Utena comes from: the ideal lives on in her regardless. In a very imperfect human form, but it lives.

Ignoring the fact that basically nothing that happens in the duels is real...

Dios isn't about being "in a very imperfect human form".

Dios is about being God. Eternal. Omnipotent. Perfect. The power of Dios is the power of miracles, the shining thing, the thing that will revolutionise the world.

Dios lived, yes. Dios is Akio. Akio is Dios. They are the same being. Utena is not Dios, any more than she is Akio.

There's no doubting at any rate that Utena's development involves her identification with the Prince.

Certainly it does. And it is wrong. Her identification with being a Prince is what makes her arrogantly assume she knows what Anthy wants, what makes her ignore other people's concerns, and what makes her think she could beat Akio in a swordfight and that would somehow make anything better. Trying to be a Prince never leads to anything good for Utena, because trying to be a Prince is playing Akio's game.

Anthy doesn't say that Akio is wrong when he says Utena couldn't bring about a revolution. She says he doesn't understand what happened (to her), and that Utena has moved beyond his enclosed little world where he plays at being a Prince. Anthy is not leaving to find a Prince. She's leaving to find Utena.

If he was willing to put it in the story, I would suggest that he had reason to believe it would fit into the continuity plausibly, y'know.

If he was willing to put it in the story, it would be in the story. It isn't, and to turn your own argument around, I would suggest that means he had reason to believe it would not fit into the continuity plausibly.

Instead, he stuck it in the movie, which has no continuity or consistancy worth mentioning.  Why not put it in the TV show if he wanted to see it? Must be some reason, right?

However, I consider this an invalid argument from either angle.

Not at all. Her nobility is authentic and not only is it authentic, it changes the course of the events around her. This Akio didn't insert: it was Utena herself, inspired by the suffering of Anthy. After Touga's first duel, Utena tries to be normal, and the message is, "what is normal for Utena is not normal for anybody else."

No, Utena tries to be a subdued doormat. That isn't normal for HER, and is tantamount to calling Touga sitting in a room listening to music through the Black Rose arc his attempt at being "normal".  Her nobility exists only inasmuch as in the end she chooses Anthy's good over her own good. If you want to call that noble, fine (I prefer "love", because it's not like she makes those kind of choices all the time). But it doesn't make anything about the Utena we see in episode 1 authentic. The Utena we see in episode 1 is a typical anime hero... and not a single shred of her will stand the test of time, because it is fake. The real Utena, the pure and noble Utena if you want that term (though I still dislike it), is the one we only see when all of that has been stripped away from her in Episode 39.

And aside from canon: how many gays have insisted over and over again that they're "normal" before coming out proper?

With all due respect, this strikes me an argument borne more out of a desire to believe something than logic (and you're not the only one who's made it).

I'll insist to you all day I'm straight. I am. I am straight. I sexually desire only females. Saying this does not paradoxically make me crave the man-meat.

No, it just proves that Wakaba could shine -- Wakaba could be not-normal.

Then we'll never agree, I think. Because you thinking the lesson of Wakaba shining is that "Wakaba is special" rather than "Any person can shine" is incomprehensible to me as an actual serious view of the series.  Seriously, it's like coming away from the series thinking Akio won, it's that non-intuitive for me.

Wakaba is the definitive example of a non-special person. That's arguably her main purpose in the series, serving as the Everywoman.

I'm startled you didn't see her as the Prince. I suppose it's hard to pinpoint just what "being the prince" means, but I think it's undeniable, again, that Utena identifies with the Prince, and that this identification is what is portrayed to be truest to Utena's self.

Then why do you think it is that when Utena is fighting bravely and valiantly, shouting "I will become a Prince", she loses?

And why is it that crawling on her belly, bloody and beaten, saying "I'm sorry I couldn't become a Prince", she wins?

I quote Dios: "The only thing that will save her is a Prince she can believe in."

Dios is Akio. Dios is explictly Akio in that scene; the series even cheekily poses them exactly the same. Akio has every reason to wish Utena to believe this.

In this sense, Utena absolutely does not fail: because she was a Prince, Anthy believed in her, and was saved. That the ideals of nobility and friendship exist despite human foibles is, I believe, one of the major themes of Utena.

Anthy believes in Utena specifically because she isn't a Prince. She already has a Prince: Akio. She says as much. She also says Utena could never be her Prince. She isn't lying, because she has no reason to lie either time. Again, it is when Utena is doing the Prince act that Anthy stabs her in the back, because she is certain Utena can not save her and thus chooses Akio over her. She chooses the Prince over Utena.

Utena then saves Anthy. But not as the Prince. Specifically not as the Prince.

Doesn't make it any less of a mistake, I think, nor does it change the fact those mistakes were completely wrong for her.

I'm not saying Touga or Akio were good romantic matchups for her. Just that they were the matchups Utena wanted, not Juri or Anthy or Wakaba or any other woman (many, many, many of whom were available to her).

This is a little confusing -- "sexual overtone"? ;) How could this exist if their relationship is completely platonic?

Because they are "engaged", they live together, and they later share the same bed.

It's impossible for there not to be a sexual undertone under such circumstances. I could not be in those circumstances with anybody female and not recognise a sexual undertone. Yet Utena does not acknowledge any such undertone at all. Why not? I suggest it is because, just like with Wakaba, that Utena does not have any sexual interest in females.

Anthy and Utena's relationship is in the background for many, if not most, of the episodes; she and Utena live a relatively domesticated life. I don't see why it's not plausible that they'd be friends before anything developed. Especially since Utena is initially distracted by the possibility of her Prince.

Utena and Anthy have been good friends for quite some time by the point where we reach the Akio arc, and there is still not even the slightest indication of sexual interest in Anthy from Utena.

And as with Juri and boys, I say, "you have no proof she doesn't, so it's still a possibility, and given the nature of the series I'd say even a probability."

Then, once again, I will point out that by those standards, you can't really be convinced anybody in the series is bisexual. There is more evidence Utena is straight than there is evidence that anybody is bisexual.  Seriously, anybody. There's no hard (har!) evidence Akio and Touga ever had sex, for instance.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I made this argument because it reflects the reality of my life.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make it less wrong.

Why? Because it is based on nothing but anecdotal evidence, and it relies on your anecdotal evidence being applicable to every other situation.

It isn't. I'm straight. And saying I'm straight makes me no less straight. Therefore, your argument is wrong.

I can't say this strongly enough, because "People who deny they're gay/bi are in denial" is an insulting argument, every single bit as insulting and demeaning as saying "All gay/bisexual people can be 'cured' by religious faith". Acknowledging that obviously the second statement has hurt more people than the first, I still don't think either are acceptable statements.

I'm not saying that it's definitely true. The fact that you're saying you're straight and are telling the truth is every bit an anecdote as my experience with people saying they're straight and later realizing that they're gay. If your argument is to be true, it also relies on your anecdotal evidence being applicable to every situation.