Yeah, I think so. I feel bad for Shiori more than anything else. I know what it's like to have someone enamored with you when you really don't feel the same way. Of course, in that sense I also feel for Juri. But everyone feels for Juri.

It's an awful cliche but perhaps neither have really good boundaries, especially Shiori. They don't know how to defend their boundaries. Perhaps mere growing up will solve a lot of that. I could even see Ruka bumping into them by accident a few months later after the Revolution. They will say, "Hi Ruka, we were just talking about you!" and then give him a pair of knowing, unsettling grins. He probably is better off dead.

brian wrote:

It's an awful cliche but perhaps neither have really good boundaries, especially Shiori. They don't know how to defend their boundaries. Perhaps mere growing up will solve a lot of that. I could even see Ruka bumping into them by accident a few months later after the Revolution. They will say, "Hi Ruka, we were just talking about you!" and then give him a pair of knowing, unsettling grins. He probably is better off dead.

I agree, growing up would solve a lot of problems. And I think that's what Utena's revolution was, it was allowing them to grow up and escape Ohtori and perpetual childhood.

I would imagine people call her a lesbian because she only displays sexual interest in women, and none at all for any man, including ones she otherwise likes.

My bias is not to assume everybody's bisexual when there's no evidence to believe they are.

My bias is not to assume everybody's bisexual when there's no evidence to believe they are.

I dunno, I suppose it's because when I say I'm bi, people either go (if they're straight) "you're just experimenting" or (if they're gay) "you're in denial," but it really bothers me when people assume someone's sexuality based on their attraction to one gender. It just assumes that there isn't this huge gray area in sexuality, and that we think of people in such rigidly genderdefined terms that we can't accept some nuance here and there.

I concur that in Utena, everyone is bi at heart.

Last edited by Syna (12-10-2006 01:35:16 PM)

Haha, I just assume she has her own category - Shiorisexual

Razara wrote:

A Day Without Me wrote:

Haha, I just assume she has her own category - Shiorisexual

I find it amusing that Shiori gets her own category of sexual preference. XD

Well, Juri doesn't show any interest in anyone else, male or female, so why not?

And some people are just attracted to one person only, so defining it by gender seems foolish.

But it is still funny when people = a whole other category of sexual orientation

Syna wrote:

I dunno, I suppose it's because when I say I'm bi, people either go (if they're straight) "you're just experimenting" or (if they're gay) "you're in denial," but it really bothers me when people assume someone's sexuality based on their attraction to one gender. It just assumes that there isn't this huge gray area in sexuality, and that we think of people in such rigidly genderdefined terms that we can't accept some nuance here and there.

I concur that in Utena, everyone is bi at heart.

See, in all seriousness, here's my problem with that. I don't assume anyone's in denial or just experimenting because they say they're bisexual. I think you're qualified to know and I'm not. But I get a vibe from many bisexual people (and have been told flat out by others) that they believe that, in fact, there is this huge grey area and everyone's "at least a little" bisexual. I find that similarly insulting as you do when people tell you you're really gay or straight, and for what I suspect is the same reason - who are they, who have experienced their own sexuality, to tell me that mine is "really" theirs?

But, seriousness aside, Utena's a fictional series with fictional characters. It doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg if you think Juri's bi, or Shiori is bi, or Tsuwabuki is bi, so go for it. I just don't believe so myself, as I prefer to stick with what there's actual evidence for in analysing the characters. Similarly, I think the notion of any threesomes in Utena (that are not Akio inserting himself into a canonical couple, which I think he could do) is silly, but hey, all the speculation over on that thread doesn't hurt me either.

Last edited by Blade (12-10-2006 06:54:42 PM)

Uh, I'd say a lot more characters in Utena than that are only shown to be interested in one gender. In fact, the only characters that are in any situation at all with both genders (excluding Akio and Anthy, who are only arguably human) are Nemuro/Mikage (actually in love with both a man and a woman), Utena (and she's very iffy), Touga (who is all but stated flat-out to be a straight man who screws Akio for power), Miki (who may have been completely ignorant of the music teacher's intentions), Kozue (also iffy, but I'll give it for argument's sake), Wakaba (I doubt it intensely, but I'll once again give it for argument), and that's it. That's six people, and only if you assume everybody who there's even the slightest shadow of a doubt about (including people who deny they're bisexual, or who dislike bisexuality) is actually bisexual. If you only take people who actually, of their own free will, ever actually make any romantic moves on someone else, that's two (and Kozue's still dubious at best). If you want to include Anthy and Akio, that's still only four.

Nanami, Saionji, Juri, Shiori, Keiko, Tsuwabuki, Mari, Kanae, Mamiya, Ruka, Tatsuya and Tokiko never display any canonical hint of interest in more than one gender. That's twice as many as the most incredibly generous giving of bisexuality to any human character who there's even a shadow of doubt about, and three times as many as anybody who's ever given us any hard (har!) evidence that they are in fact bisexual (including the immortal inhuman people).  I don't think that's great grounds to declare everybody bi.  Once again, it doesn't hurt me that you think it, and you can if you like, but I don't see any reason to believe it.

I am aware and agree with you that human sexuality is a spectrum, not a on-off switch, but that's the case for almost every human trait. I can appreciate your dislike of the notion that "straight" and "gay", or even "straight, gay or bi?" is all there is. However, Utena is a work of fiction, and it's perfectly capable of giving people completely binary sexuality, just like most fiction does. And I would assume it pretty much does for the most part, with only one real bisexual in the series (Mikage), two inhuman people I wouldn't apply human sexuality to (Akio and Anthy), and one girl who really is only interested in getting her brother's attention by any means necessary (Kozue). The majority of people in Utena appear to be straight, a few are homosexual, and even fewer are truly bisexual... a ratio that mirrors what most people see in real life. Again, it's cool if you think otherwise, but that's what I've gleaned from an examination of what's actually in the show, and unless I missed something somewhere, I myself won't believe "everyone's bisexual" is in any way supported by the canon.

Oh,. and Juri rejects Ruka because he's a jerk. Obviously.

Uh, I'd say a lot more characters in Utena than that are only shown to be interested in one gender.

OK, some qualifications to a very hasty statement. I think most main characters of Utena at least show a -hint- of being attracted to both sexes, if they are in fact attracted to anyone, and anyone outside of their sibling (heh) - and if they are in fact shown long enough to establish any kind of attraction besides a single one. This, while not, perhaps, an indicator of bisexuality in everyone, is an indicator of sexual fluidity. We can debate the specifics if you like; those I'd consider without-a-doubt "bi" are Utena, Anthy, Akio, and Touga, those who are hinted at it to be Saionji, Shiori, perhaps (now that you mention it) Miki. The others are Juri (who, under some people's interpretations, does love Ruka, and though I don't believe that myself I can see why), Nanami (who is obsessed with Big Brother), Kozue (who clearly is willing to mess about with Anthy to fuck poor Miki up), Tswabuki (who is too young to be really attracted to anybody, or know what it means) and Wakaba (our token Normal Girl), and of course various screaming females including Keiko et all. Having not analyzed our dear Mikage et al as I should, I won't comment on those.

Whatever the numbers turn out to be, that's a -lot- of a main cast of characters that at least toy with the idea. (Out of curiosity, who can you say is without a doubt homosexual besides Juri?)

Perhaps I'm just more willing to grant it than you: I don't think Touga, for example, is flat-out said to be straight, nor bi, nor anything, because - and this is my major point, drumroll please! - sexual orientation is never, ever addressed in Utena! EVER! except in a really obviously facetious remark by Touga to Nanami. In a show with so much Gay, you'd think it would be, and it just isn't. Gender is never ever a factor in why anyone is attracted to anyone except maybe Utena's attraction to Akio/Touga as a Prince (and I'd argue that that's her being confused, given what her true memory of the encounter with the prince is). Just as, in the end, it isn't a factor in who serves as whose Rose Bride in the duels. I interpret this as meaning it's a non-issue.

Syna wrote:

OK, some qualifications to a very hasty statement. I think most main characters of Utena at least show a -hint- of being attracted to both sexes, if they are in fact attracted to anyone, and anyone outside of their sibling (heh) - and if they are in fact shown long enough to establish any kind of attraction besides a single one. This, while not, perhaps, an indicator of bisexuality in everyone, is an indicator of sexual fluidity. We can debate the specifics if you like; those I'd consider without-a-doubt "bi" are Utena, Anthy, Akio, and Touga, those who are hinted at it to be Saionji, Shiori, perhaps (now that you mention it) Miki. The others are Juri (who, under some people's interpretations, does love Ruka, and though I don't believe that myself I can see why), Nanami (who is obsessed with Big Brother), Kozue (who clearly is willing to mess about with Anthy to fuck poor Miki up), Tswabuki (who is too young to be really attracted to anybody, or know what it means) and Wakaba (our token Normal Girl), and of course various screaming females including Keiko et all. Having not analyzed our dear Mikage et al as I should, I won't comment on those.

See, how can you say Touga is "without a doubt bi" when the only male he has sexual relations with is Akio? I'd probably have sex with Akio, and I'm not bi.

(And Keiko was never a screaming Utena fan, and she hates Nanami's guts, so that one confuses me even more.)

Whatever the numbers turn out to be, that's a -lot- of a main cast of characters that at least toy with the idea. (Out of curiosity, who can you say is without a doubt homosexual besides Juri?)

See, I don't agree that a lot of cast members toyed with the idea at all. As I said before, I think four characters toy with the idea, and two of them aren't human by any meaningful standard.

Mamiya might have been, it's hard to tell (due to Mikage's memories being so heavily distorted). That's it other than Mitsuko (most obscure named character in Utena go!), and neither are "without a doubt" due to lack of information.

Perhaps I'm just more willing to grant it than you: I don't think Touga, for example, is flat-out said to be straight, nor bi, nor anything, because - and this is my major point, drumroll please! - sexual orientation is never, ever addressed in Utena! EVER! except in a really obviously facetious remark by Touga to Nanami.

And yet you think "without a doubt" many people are bi, right?  So obviously it doesn't need to be directly addressed to draw some conclusions about at least what was shown on-screen. I think it's possible many people are bi, but only in the same sense that it's possible they're transsexual, Mormons, or space aliens. There's no evidence for it, so it's not canonical; I'd accept it in a fanfic if I felt it was believable, but not accept it as a given (and accordingly, I dislike every fanfic I've seen that's set up Juri and Shiori as a couple).

As for Touga's "facetious remark", I actually think that's very telling and not at all a throwaway comment. I don't believe for one instant that it is a coincidence that Touga, in the same storyarc where he's banging Akio, makes a very pointed statement on the "rightness" of heterosexuality.

In a show with so much Gay, you'd think it would be, and it just isn't.

So much gay... one person?

Gender is never ever a factor in why anyone is attracted to anyone except maybe Utena's attraction to Akio/Touga as a Prince (and I'd argue that that's her being confused, given what her true memory of the encounter with the prince is). Just as, in the end, it isn't a factor in who serves as whose Rose Bride in the duels. I interpret this as meaning it's a non-issue.

Erm, what would "make gender a factor" for you? People don't normally go "I love that person, because they're a woman!" in any other series either.

I would argue that Utena is in fact very steeped in gender roles and societal norms and thus I find it unlikely that it just tossed them aside in romantic relationships.

If you're looking for flatout statements of sexual orientation you aren't going to find them in Utena. This is a very sexual series with innuendo up the ying-yang, but it's never brought up verbally. At least half of everything we 'know' about the series is due to interpretatoin of symbolism and metaphor.

It's easy enough to say "Utena and Anthy don't have sex during the series." Granted, there's no proof that they do. There isn't any proof that Touga and Akio do anything together beyond lying on the same bed with their shirts open. And it's easy enough to state that Utena doesn't show any sexual attraction to Anthy throughout the series because it's just not something you'd see blatantly. But I can't imagine anyone claiming there are no lesbian overtones in Utena and Anthy's relationship.

It's not grasping at straws to think that, in a show so rife with bisexual innuendo, only someone who actively pursues two people of different genders can be thought of as bi. It's a case where reading between the lines isn't just possible, it's vital.