This doesn't help answer the question any, but I always found Utena's answer to Mitsuru to be of little help. It's actually double sided. You don't experience adult things until you are an adult, but the experience of these things is what makes you adult. They are just simply 'things' rather than 'adult things' so long as you are still a child, yet apparently, they are what makes you an adult. Damn you and your tricky answers, Utena!

I don't know that there is any real answer to that question, but I'd like to think it's when you get to the point where you stop trying to know and begin trying to understand. Then, when you stop trying to understand and begin to just accept. I know giving up on understanding things is the least adult sounding thing you can do, but I think there are many people who need to try it. I definately think it keeps you somewhat childish to think you'll ever be able to know everything about anything. You make your first step when you begin to understnd it. However, at some point, you have to accept that things will go wrong sometimes, rather than working yourself to the bone thinking there's a way to find out 'Why?'.

How unsteady, I know. But, I'm not an adult myself, so you'll have to forgive the lack of logic.

Adulthood, maturity, being a "grownup," they're all things that mean something different to different people.  For example: since I was a small child, I've always been referred to as "[insert age] going on 60."  This came from parents, siblings, grandparents, friends, family acquaintances.  I've been known for being mature beyond my years in my actions for most of my life.  My friends referred to me as the mother of our group, and knew that I wouldn't let them get into trouble they didn't truly want to get into (even if it sounded like a good idea at the time.)  Moreover, I became independent of my mother at age 20 (the money I received from her until I was 22 actually was an annuity I should have received directly, but most likely she was skimming a bit off the top--she refused to ever show me the actual check so I could never know the amount I was owed.)  I lived in my own apartment, paid for with my own money, owned my own car, paid my own bills etc.  I made wise financial decisions (I've always been pretty frugal), and even when I was severely underemployed and Paradox was unemployed for 3 years, we never had to request assistance from anyone.

That makes me seem like quite the adult, right?

The problem is, I have never seen myself as an adult.  I considered myself a mature child, making good decisions, but I never thought of myself as adult and still don't.  Quite frankly, I still feel like I'm 16.  I'm completely independent, I'm married, I'll hopefully own my own house within a year, etc., but really I'm just a very independent teenager in my mind.  I think that will keep me young, and for that I am always grateful. 

I remember one girl (see?  I can't even call people my age "women" or "men" they're just girls and guys to me because of my mindset) in one of my graduate history classes made the comment, "I know I'm adult now, because tonight I had a Tombstone pizza, cut it in half with a pair of scissors, and ate the whole thing."  Everyone has a different idea of adulthood, that's for darn sure.... ^_-

Last edited by Cerise (07-20-2007 08:10:15 PM)

I wish I knew what adulthood was. I know a lot of my former classmates at my old university consider me if not an adult then damn close and for perspective, here's why:

I enrolled at UC Irvine (for those of you outside the US or even those who don't know anything about it, its ranked at #9 on the list of best public universities in the United States, or at least was in 2004 and was in the top 100 for best universities in the US but I don't remember what number it was.) in the fall of 2005 as a music major (going for a Bachelor's of Music in French Horn). My dad had been laid off from his well-paying job a few months earlier. By the end of my second quarter there, he was no closer to getting a job than he was when he'd gotten laid off. If anything, he was further from getting one than he was at first. So I left university, moved back in with my parents, give my mother rent money when she'll take it from me and am putting myself through community college, looking to transfer to a closer university to get my Bachelor's of Arts (or Sciences if they offer it) in some form of psychology.

I don't feel even remotely close to an adult. I still don't drive, I live with my parents and I don't know what to do with myself, though my mother tells me that the latter doesn't go away even if you're an adult. Most of my nominally-adult friends tell me that I'm a better man than my father, who still doesn't have a job.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I don't feel even remotely close to an adult. I still don't drive, I live with my parents and I don't know what to do with myself, though my mother tells me that the latter doesn't go away even if you're an adult. Most of my nominally-adult friends tell me that I'm a better man than my father, who still doesn't have a job.

I think a truly matured person is someone who has gone through hardship and has survived but not gone bitter and/or cynical about life and world. No matter how old you are, to keep hope and miracles and inner child alive is still important in my book.
You're pretty mature in my opinion, Shattered, comparing to another person I know. She apparently has gone through state of near-poverty because her parents don't seem to make much income. But, she's got her tuition via scholarships and such. But, the thing is, she's lost most, if not all, of the inner-child inside her, which is kind of sad. Everything seems to have become formula and case studies no matter how sociable she is. And, on her scholarship essay, she even wrote about her grudge against her mother's negligence, which, for some reason, has become her fuel and inspiration to succeed (kinda creepy to turn hate as a driving force for life)

Other people may argue against me about the thing about keeping the kiddish-ness as that might mean a person never really grow up at all since maturing should mean to give up certain things in life in order to allow for evolution of the spirit and mind. But who knows? Should becoming an adult really mean to give up what used to make you a kid? I think the concept of "kid" and "adult" can and should coexist with each other. I don't think the purpose of "kid" is something you must discard forever, one day. Does the concept of "kid" only stay alive for as long as those first 10 years of your life while adulthood gets to follow you for the rest of your 70-80 years?

It's just me, but life seems boring that way. I think even in Utena series, it's sort of being established that both are necessary to face the real world. If it wasn't for Utena's "childish" (?) hope in becoming a prince for Anthy, she wouldn't have been able to show her the path away from Ohtori at the end of the story.

For my case, I think my current state of mind is like what Cerise said, a mature (semi-mature is more like it) child, but not an adult. I still prefer to go with the heart than the head sometimes because I believe that knowing how I really feel allows me to be closer to what I really am, so sometimes being too straightforward about my thoughts appear as something disturbing to others. But, I'm absolutely sick of people who claim that they're putting up walls because they don't want to get hurt. And, my straightforwardness sometimes leads to people putting up guards against me, which seriously fumes me (and nobody was happy when that happens). Okay, I admit, I'm not mature adult, and I make horrible mistakes that I regret, but for that, some people in college establish a leverage and treat me as an inferior just because I don't act rationally as often as I apparently should (I don't think there's ever a standard for how rational should you act as a college student). I'm sick of the fact that those people would assume that because I don't act mature enough, I must have the mindset of a kid, and so they assume they have me all figured out. When I give them nicknames and rib at them, they'd get mad at me and accuse me of insulting them. They don't bother to give me an actual chance to express myself, and would instead finish my sentence when I'm only halfway through with verbalizing. They get "scared" of me and put up walls against me when they see me walk by with a black cloud.

It's upsetting. Some people don't treat you with respect just because your thinking level doesn't seem to be on par with them.

*This Tsuwabuki moment brought to you by Hiraku, should seriously have been put into the Complaint Thread*

dlaire wrote:

Hiraku wrote:

When I give them nicknames and rib at them, they'd get mad at me and accuse me of insulting them. They don't bother to give me an actual chance to express myself, and would instead finish my sentence when I'm only halfway through with verbalizing. They get "scared" of me and put up walls against me when they see me walk by with a black cloud.

It's upsetting. Some people don't treat you with respect just because your thinking level doesn't seem to be on par with them.

*This Tsuwabuki moment brought to you by Hiraku, should seriously have been put into the Complaint Thread*

I understand this. I look more childish than my contemporaries, so I was treated as a kid. In High School it changed, but I still feel bad about my too infantile appearance. Another thing: In January I will be allowed to drink alcohol, smoke, vote and drive a car, but does it makes me adult? No. I won't be more mature than in December, and that's funny that I thought that I will be so mature as 18. Maybe as thirty I would think the same, but my future duties fightens me. I will have to manage them, but maybe I won't be prepared for it.

Yeah... like how you'd have to hit the big 2-1 to be able to drink. But, sometimes it gets me thinking. Why 21? Does it matter if you drink 2 years before your 21st birthday? Or say 2 days before then?
But that's made 21 a milestone for a lot of people, so I'm loving this!

Hiraku wrote:

Why 21? Does it matter if you drink 2 years before your 21st birthday? Or say 2 days before then?
But that's made 21 a milestone for a lot of people, so I'm loving this!

In Poland drinking is allowed for eighteens, but almost everyone have drunk before this age.
Another "adult thing" is sex. Does defloration makes us more mature? I don't think so, sometimes it's proof of someone's immaturity - when 14 year old girl gets pregnant that's her careless actions (or stupidy), not adult thing. From the other hand: Virginity could be just a bad luck or ugliness, not maturity. Imo sex should be only for adults, but where's the line? Year? Appearance? Actions? Character? Everything is blurred, and it's so hard to catch a difference between mature kid and adult, between joyful adult and careless kid.

Last edited by dlaire (07-21-2007 11:54:56 AM)

I don't remember when or where I heard this but somewhere I heard that in some ways you've become an adult when you truly come to terms with the fact that one day you will die. Most children don't understand death and even most teens don't think about the fact that they'll die some day. It's not so much a matter of being morbid, just realizing that you only get maybe 75 years on this planet (though of course I have a friend with a great grandmother who just turned I think 102).

I don't think that's all there is to it, but I think a genuine acceptance of your own mortality is a part of it.

dlaire wrote:

Another "adult thing" is sex. Does defloration makes us more mature? I don't think so, sometimes it's proof of someone's immaturity - when 14 year old girl gets pregnant that's her careless actions (or stupidy), not adult thing. From the other hand: Virginity could be just a bad luck or ugliness, not maturity. Imo sex should be only for adults, but where's the line? Year? Appearance? Actions? Character? Everything is blurred, and it's so hard to catch a difference between mature kid and adult, between joyful adult and careless kid.]

I totally agree. This all reminds me of a discussion I had in high school a couple years ago. Humans have existed for thousands of years and a person was conceived as an adult once he or she got married/had children or just simply produced children. It was only in the last century where our opinions of adulthood have drastically changed. It was in the 1920's when the term "teenager" arose and people began to develop where that line of maturity is. Since then, we've all gotten more confused. The teenage term just messed everyone up since teens are unsure of what they really are.

I think that the virginity thing just goes back to the old, ancient, neanderthal belief of what humans have referred to as a child. Now, since we're more educated and culturally aware, it just doesn't count anymore. You can have sex without getting married and prevent pregnancy with the right preparations. Just 'cause ya do it doesn't mean you have to take responsibility for anything.

Last edited by Rae (07-22-2007 10:38:03 AM)

Something else that goes with adulthood, I think, is understanding your limitations. When we're young, we have a hard time separating our ideal world from the real world. This lets younger people display the kind of nobility Utena shows, while an older more "mature" person would "know better". One of the many ways this shows up is in thinking that two people can share the same life experience. We can't. Our lives overlap each others, we share a joke, a movie, a meal. But we each experience these things differently. That's been one of the most painful lessons of my life, and I still forget sometimes. But I have to keep reminding myself, because it's not fair to others to be hurt by their difference in perspective. In my heart I still have the fantasy of someone that will really "get" me, but I know better mostly. While this knowledge saddens me, it gives me a renewed appreciation for the people that I can share some things with, and gives me the motivation to reach out across the gap and meet them halfway. It's one of the reasons I enjoy IRG so much, I know that I can talk about Saionji's twisted nobility here, or Kozue's inferiority complex, and you guys will know exactly what I'm talking about. That's really a precious thing, and something people have to learn not to expect from everyone, or even from those closest to us, no matter how much we want it to be otherwise.

I wanted to sum all of that up at the end, but I've lost my train of thought...whatever.

Ahhh...I cringe at the word "adult" right now. As Gio was saying it does have the trappings like responsibility and the such, and a loss of...something..I'm not sure exactly what that something is. The 'something' could be innoncence, curiosity and nonchalance, but as you get older and you experience life's battles you lose those traits over the years and some of us don't which render us to describe them as "child like."

you know it's weird, when you are a kid you kinda know that you don't get to live forever...but when you think about death, you sorta think "is it like game over? do I come back? How will I know if I come back?"  I still have issues surrounding death. Primarily, because I have been to one too many funerals in my life, and you would think that somehow I'd get used to it, but no...it still eludes me.

Having just registered for all my insurance through Hilton, I feel strangely adult. It must be the aftereffects of having spent a day deciding if Death & Dismemberment insurance was really worth it.

Is it adulthood the acceptance of impending mortality?