(Sorry for resurrecting all the dead threads...)

I think it'd be interesting to see the cast's relationships in relation to each other as well, if only a specific character was born with the opposite sex. For example, would female!Saionji desire an eternal friendship with Anthy as opposed to a romantic relationship? (Of course, fem!Saionji still would use physical violence on Anthy when she spots Anthy's true feelings towards her, which are apathy at best.) Is she still as involved with/proud of her kendo, or would she go for some other Japanese traditional activity like archery, as kendo is more frequently associated with men+masculinity? (Archery, as far as I know, is more gender-neutral.) What kind of relationship would she have with Touga and Nanami? Would she even have had the opportunity to become friends with Touga when they were young in the first place?

Personally, I do think it's possible for them to become friends when they were younger, especially if Saionji still does kendo. Depending on how you interpret Saionji's class background, it might be possible for their families to run in the same circles. But whereas Nanami and Saionji had a vaguely sibling-like relationship in some scenes of the anime, I think Nanami would eventually see fem!Saionji as a threat and have more hostility towards her (with fem!Saionji responding in kind because Nanami doesn't respect her, although in a more physically aggressive/less verbal or psychological way). I still can't quite make up my mind on Touga's treatment of fem!Saionji, although I think he'd try to seduce her (possibly subtly implying that they're not friends because Saionji is a girl, and Touga doesn't see the point of having female friends). Saionji seemed like a sensitive kid, so (I think) he developed a nasty persona to hide or compensate for his sensitivity (which he viewed as a weakness) in canon; but would there be less stigma of an emotionally sensitive girl, or would fem!Saionji still view her sensitivity as a weakness and projects a tough front, only to completely lose it (like canon Saionji) when she feels emotionally provoked or threatened?

Last edited by randomprojects (05-01-2011 10:20:58 PM)

Hm, it would really be interesting if the cast was gender-swaped. Even if the personalities were exactly the same, we'd still view the characters differently because of their gender. Even if we happen to reject so-called traditional gender roles, we probably still have weird unconscious ideas about the way people of either gender generally are supposed to behave and what a girl or guy has to do in order to be likable. Not to mention, the whole show is kind of a critique on the way gender roles work in society right now. Remember the line, "A girl who cannot become a princess is doomed to become a witch." One of the themes in Utena involves breaking out of having only to choose between the princess or witch roles and showing that a girl can become empowered and can be a prince. Needless to say, that would probably be very different if the main character was a boy who wanted to be a princess.

As for girl!Ruka some fans might view her as more sympathetic than boy!Ruka, but it would definitely vary a lot. I think that many fans would despise or be irritated at girl!Ruka for having to show up to fix boy!Juri and boy!Shiori's relationship.  It think it's similar to what OnlyInThisLight said about how the Juri/Shiori dynamic was pretty much a "girl's only" dynamic at first, but then they had to have a princely guy come to fix their problems. If Ruka was a girl, she might still be disliked for the same reasons.

I admit I have difficulty seeing male!Utena, because Utena challenges gender roles by wanting to become a prince... somehow I don't think the series would deliver it's message of "you have to save yourself, no one else can do it for you" in regards to Anthy if boy!Utena wanted to become a princess (who are characterized in SKU as damsels in distress, always depending on others to save them). Unless boy!Utena desires to become a fairy godmother instead... then the narrative might still go along similar lines. However, instead of an emphasis on chivalry and saving the princesses (agency falls on the prince), the fairy godmother often helps the heroines along on their quest, but never directly 'saves' them. Therefore, I think the dynamic boy!Utena have with Anthy, whether male or female, would be significantly different than in canon, which is very interesting to think about. Boy!Utena as a fairy godmother would help Anthy on her/his tasks, but this interaction between them would force Anthy to have a bit more agency, as the fairy godmother only helps, maybe casts protection, but doesn't really rush in to save the princesses like the prince archetype. They're enablers, in a sense, while the prince is responsible for the princess's life/virtue.

Hm, would boy!Anthy still be the Rose Bride (the ultimate submissive doll), or would he be represented in another fairytale trope? It also feels kind of weird to call him a wizard (spear counterpart of witch), as the evil male role in fairytales seems to be the false king or dragon, as opposed to a wizard (evil wizards do exist, but mostly male sorcerers are the good guys fulfilling the mentor/helper roles. The masculine evil in fairytales seems to either be the evil uncle/false king or the monster/dragon.) Oh that note, what would girl!Dios and female!Akio be, if we match them up with fairy tale archetypes, as the show does? If we take Dios' nobility into account, it'd make most sense that she was a princess - but that seems to go against the characterization of princesses in the show. Maybe she was a fairy godmother who goes around helping all the damsels? But fairy godmother is magic, and works differently than a prince. A prince is supposed to save everyone; failing to do so is blamed on him not being a good enough prince, hence the angry mob outside their door; on the other hand, fairy godmothers only bless certain girls, namely those who are kind, gentle, good etc. So if a girl doesn't have a fairy godmother, the fairy godmother doesn't get blamed (no one seems to go "hey you! Why didn't you bless my daughter?!"). It'd be the girl's fault instead, for not being virtuous/hardworking/gentle etc enough to warrant a blessing from a fairy godmother.

Therefore, I have an easier time accepting genderflipped council members and other characters, as they don't absolutely rely on these tropes as part of their characters (with maybe the exception of Touga, as he tries to play prince), but my brain gets a bit confused trying to work out how exactly Utena, Anthy and Dios/Akio would've worked out as the opposite gender without changing the themes and messages of the show too much (because these characters relies on the tropic role they play, and the archetypal purposes those roles have, for most of the series).

FemaleSaionji beating the crap out of boyAnthy would be like any anime with tsundere as heroine out there.

I wonder what people would think about f-Akio and m-Kanae's relationship, since it'd be a 30-something woman cheating on her 20-odd-year-old fiance.

Of course, f-Akio would then be a cougar, so they'd all hate her.

monica wrote:

FemaleSaionji beating the crap out of boyAnthy would be like any anime with tsundere as heroine out there.

No kidding! (<-is getting tired of the recent Tsundere trend)

Stormcrow wrote:

Let me be the first to confess that I'm a lot more willing to forgive faults in females than I am in males. I know it's not right, but it's just how I am.

It's kinda weird how certain gender biases, if not double standards, change our perspectives on things.b

Now I must brainstorm for myself!

I think in a completely gender swapped cast, Saionji would've made a better first impression on me if he were a she (though the end result would be the same ). Utena, Anthy, Touga, Juri, Nanami, Mikage, Ruka and Wakaba would probably be unaltered in my eyes. Kanae would be marginally the same either way. I likely would've disliked a male Shiori more. That kind of conniving behavior is unflattering in anyone, but my personal biases are such that I'm more prone to expecting that behavior in women and more offended when I see such behaviors in men. I might have liked a male Keiko more (because I would've enjoyed cat-calling him a creeper, not for any useful reasons). That scene where Keiko looks in through the window at the party (and at Touga) would have struck less of a sympathetic, Cinderella chord. Would've been more dismissive of a female Tsuwabuki... Probably would've still wound up shipping Nanami/Tsuwabuki either way though...

I also would probably have a more negative opinion of Akio if he had been a she and I'm having a hard time trying to work out why. . I think it's because the stereotype of the female bad guys also being the only sexually assertive/ambitious characters in shoujo anime, horror films and the like has always rubbed me the wrong way. The Prince deconstruction that Akio has got going on was intriguing, but an affluent, good looking woman who seduces everyone and is (more or less) the villain of the series? Wouldn't have impressed me. She would've been one among many.

Edit: Does Mamiya count?

Last edited by Rotten Mooring (12-22-2011 10:35:57 AM)

I don't see why swapping genders has to include swapping prince/princess roles.

Ashnod wrote:

Think of it in a different manner, though. If the gender of the big three of the cast were altered, ergo, a female Akio, and a male Anthy and a male Utena, the entire premise of the genre is altered utterly. It simply doesn't survive the transition, in my opinion. A male Utena trying hard to be a princess instead of a prince is simply not the same story we currently have, though the story of a male protagonist who wishes to eschew typically masculine desires in lieu of something more feminine could be a fantastic tale when done correctly. And it must be that way, as a male Utena trying to be a prince strips away some of the allure from the storyline.

Thus, if done properly, a female Akio becomes something vastly different. While the seduction and power over the opposite sex would no doubt still be present, we could look at a female Akio as the ultimate antithesis of the princess archtype: the idealized object of affection and questing whose brother could never be her prince. A female Akio might actually have disdain for a male Utena, and in fact, be close in spirit to our normal female Utena, or a corrupted version of her.

A fascinating story can exist here if done correctly, and I think a female Akio wouldn't be just a vaginaized version of the one we know.

Oh yeah, I was just thinking of a direct transfer of characters - all else remaining equal. As soon as you start pondering different stories it begins to get a tad hypothetical for me. Until you delve into specifics, with specific parameters, we could be talking about anything.

Though, I think the man that eschews the masculine archetype in favor of the feminine has been done. Maybe not center stage, but the issue has been addressed by way of the Drag Queen and Trap! characters in anime and film. Has that story been presented in an epic or even well done way? Not often. But it has been done. Most of the stories you see for the reverse start with a Tom-Boy and end with said tomboy discovering a (male/hetero) love interest and exploring/becoming comfortable with their feminine side. Sometimes they retain their athleticism, their tomboy strength, but it's more common to get the implied lesson that all girls will become ladies (to attract and/or pacify said male love interest).

This could just as well be a bias of mine. (Maybe I'm not watching the right shows. ) Utena wanting to become a prince was unique (to me) not just for the fairy-tale deconstruction but also for the female hero remaining an old-school hero right up until the end. Somehow, I just feel that's more of a rare plot line than a man aspiring to a traditionally female role.

I think corrupted feminine models, incl. princesses, have been done with some regularity as well- but I just got done reading Lugwig Kakumei, so that statement is probably more suspect than anything else I've said today .

Edit: Truly, a fem!Akio may just be subject to a gender bias of mine. I think I might be more sympathetic to male!Akio than I would be to a fem!Akio... But that's what this is all about! Figuring out where gender changes perception!

Last edited by Rotten Mooring (12-22-2011 07:11:41 PM)

Hmm. So, I'm guessing it goes like this:

m-Utena wants to become a prince. Obviously, this attitude doesn't endear one to altruism and a desire to help others, so m-Utena would be more like Movie Utena than Series Utena. Thus, f-Akio's seduction would come through becoming a damsel in distress that Utena has to save constantly. One day, they go to a carnival. Akio falls off a ride, Utena saves her, and she decides to...reward him.

Rotten Mooring wrote:

Edit: Truly, a fem!Akio may just be subject to a gender bias of mine. I think I might be more sympathetic to male!Akio than I would be to a fem!Akio... But that's what this is all about! Figuring out where gender changes perception!

I'm gonna throw out the reverse sexism card here. Neverminding the reality of the situation, popular culture is full of romanticized versions of a female Akio. Sexually manipulative cougars aren't at all uncommon, and often times, they're portrayed almost positively, as a strong woman RAGING AGAINST THE COCKMACHINE. Men being portrayed that way in popular culture tend to be interesting villains at the best, and at the worst, strongly negative charges made by creators against the patriarchy.

When it's a woman being like that, there's a temptation to be all YOU GO GIRL about it, even if you're horrified by the character's actions. There's no such redemption for Akio. It's incredibly politically incorrect to go 'wow that sexually manipulative abuse man is cool' because, well, it hits too close to home as a reality that many would rather not have rubbed in their face. It makes him and his actions more shocking than they'd be from a woman, to be honest.

I'd be curious to see someone try to portray a female version of him if only because the trap those characters often fall into is that their behavior is constantly and blatantly petty, often with an obvious vendetta in mind. Nothing that isn't true about Akio on some level, but seems less obvious from a male villain than from the female ones. It'd be interesting to see if that single-minded selfishness without regard for the WHY of it would be preserved.

Anthiena - I like that! It does lead to some interesting implications about the show, because I can't really think of how any of the men find that inner femininity, nor do any of them strive for it. But then, Utena herself is the only character striving to really challenge the dynamics she exists in.

All I know is that since Touga sleeps around, he's considered a playboy.  But if he was a woman, he'd be considered a whore.  And that's kind of a sad statement on society.

Is it just me, or does the relationship between gender-swapped Kozue and Miki you just described bear a strong resemblance to the one between Akio and Anthy? Girl Miki seeking a 'shining thing' to replace the kind-hearted boy she once loved? Very interesting...