Almaser wrote:

Actually, those opinions influenced the structure and content of her review, and gave it a whole bunch of weaknesses and coded-homophobic 'humour' that meant I wasn't having a good time watching it. So, uh, you know, it's nice that you don't care and all but I didn't find it funny and didn't enjoy it?

I'm starting to feel like I watched a completely different review. Where exactly was there any "coded-homophobic humour" in that video?

SaionjixAnthy wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I kinda avoided watching this one, since Jesuotaku was pretty downright mean and adamant about Shoujo Kakumei Utena not being a shoujo-ai and shaming the fans who see it that way for sullying the series by seeing romantic potential between Utena and Anthy, and that the latent homosexuality expressed in the movie is what made it a lesser work.  Because homosexuality is always EROTIC (because it is deviant!) and thus lesbianism would just insult the source material with its superficiality and raunchiness.   It got to the point where it really did feel like she had some latent homophobia to work through.  I just don't want to watch anything more of hers where she touts this holier-than-thou attitude about that particular aspect of the show like she did a few months ago.  Is this one free of that sheet?


Edit:  Just to clarify, I do like everything else about Jesuotaku and her show.  Her opinions are genius and her humor spot on, and her reviews very creative in their various formats.  She puts a lot of thought and effort into her reviews and perspective, and it shows.  Her belligerent behavior /off/ the reviews concerning shoujo-ai just pissed me off.

Jesu has probably never had sex, or sex that was meaningful to her. The romantic relationship between Anthy and Utena in the series is very suggestive of the erotic. If she wants pornography instead of erotica, she can watch a different show.

Well, honestly I'm not about to make assumptions about another person's sex life  -it could just be she was raised to view homosexuality this way, by her family, peers, religion or the media.  I've seen plenty of people who've partaken in sex (and who support gay marriage) who still associate homosexuality with sex itself.  Remember all the hullabaloo about the Bert and Ernie being gay thing?  One of the things that irked me about that whole thing was that people made the argument that the puppets aren't sexual creatures, as in they have no genitalia, so thus they can't be homosexual.  Because homosexuality, unlike heterosexuality, is hard for many to disentangle from sex.  If people were to see two heterosexual puppets on screen, they would see two puppets in love, how cute and innocent.  If they saw two homosexual puppets, they would see two puppets having sex.   Part of this is good old homophobia and stereotypes about men being hyper-sexual, and part of it is that we have fetishized homosexuality to varying degrees.  Long before lesbianism or male homosexuality was even remotely permissible in society, we were all jacking off to it in porn.

Yeeah, honestly, I watched about the first few minutes of the review and stopped it, but just because I honestly didn't think it was that funny. Didn't know about all the homophobia stuff but now I definitely won't watch it. Yuck!

And once again, thank you, thank you OitL for your eloquent discussions about feminism. The whole "feminists bitching" thing irks me as well.


Obligatory

About JO's feminism comment, she expanded on it when asked in formsprings and here is what she said:

“I was an idiot and misspoke. Sad fact is, when I say "I'm not a feminist," I have a different image of feminists. I was really saying "I'm not a female supremacist," the annoying kind of "feminist" that endorses campus readings of the Vagina Monologues and claims we're all being repressed. (Yeah, I know it's a big cliche, but I'm speed-answerin' here. ;) I'm all for equal womens' rights and better portrayal of women in the media, but I live in a country with too many awesome privileges and like both even-headed men and women too much to have the gall to claim I'm being repressed by some faceless male authority or that the world doesn't take us seriously or blah blah blah. XD

But the short version is by the "rightful" definition of feminist, I am one. I guess. I'd like to think I'm just a normal person with common sense when I say both genders should be treated and portrayed honestly and fairly. I dunno why I should have to call it a stance, but I guess it's the world we live in, and that's why I stay out of politics, almost preferring not to understand it. XD”

She wasn't trying to talk down the feminist movement or deny that women have problems. She just has a problem with "feminazis". She even admitted she was an "idiot" and could've phrased her words a little better. And also, her original comment on Kino's Journey, following the "I'm not a feminist" statement was something along the lines of how writers tend to think violent, dispassionate, overly-sexual women in movies and on TV are "empowering" or "relatable" when really, they're not. She was commenting less on real women in society and more on women in fiction and how writers are too focused on writing them as "empowered" women for the sake of making a statement against repression and not on writing them as characters.

chrisb wrote:

Gall to claim they are being repressed by a faceless authority? Rightful definition?

Still doesn't excuse her comments on gay and sexually active people.

She's bit modernly sexist (which is the denial that sexism against women is still a pertinent issue and downplaying of the validity and necessity of women's rights movements*).  And it was like Almaser said, and she's basically repeating here, she only holds this nonchalant stance because she herself has privileges other women do not (excusing any disadvantages she may be unaware she has).  Not being aware of your own or other people's oppression does not give fair grounds to dismiss it. 

And saying you have a problem with Feminazis is not a valid excuse.  Feminazi is a shitty, hateful world that originated from a shitty, hateful place and a strawman argument that silences and writes of feminists as a crazy and manhating (and for inequality) stereotype. And echoing Chrisb with the eyebrow askance at the "rightful" comment.   You get to decide what feminism means to you, hell, even if you aren't a women by sex or gender, and the term is vague and fluid, but no one person or group gets to determine what it is or means for other people.  If you don't involve yourself with feminist politics and don't know much about it beyond the stereotypes, you don't get to "correct" or define it.  And while there are, unfortunately, rare examples of self-identified feminists who do call for the castration of men and other horrible things, you'll see they are just as welcome in most feminist discourse as a rotting skunk at a dinner party. 

She's not a horrible person.  She just has some narrow-minded viewpoints (that from a sociological standpoint, are harmful and absolutely should be addressed or critically examined by her consumers) and privileges (white, straight, cis gendered, Christian, being able to identify with the majority group in beliefs and attitudes) that can make some of her work unappealing or unethical for some to watch.


Edit: And men's rights movements as well.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (12-09-2011 02:52:53 AM)

SaionjixAnthy wrote:

We also have to consider that Jesu is a Christian.

What does that change?

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

She's not a horrible person.  She just has some narrow-minded viewpoints (that from a sociological standpoint, are harmful and absolutely should be addressed or critically examined by her consumers) and privileges (white, straight, cis gendered, Christian, being able to identify with the majority group in beliefs and attitudes) that can make some of her work unappealing or unethical for some to watch.

I'm not about to wade into the broader point, but I wanted to call this part out as framing the question especially well.  Problematizing without demonizing, expressing a point of view about a work without insisting that everyone share it.  It's this kind of tone that made me willing to give feminism a fair hearing back when I thought all feminists were Andrea Dworkin.

We appreciate your addressing this matter directly, and what you say is good to hear. It took courage and integrity to admit what you have admitted, and that's something I can respect.

I won't comment overmuch on the romance angle; you are completely entitled to your own opinion as to its weight in your personal view of the franchise - provided you do acknowledge that it is something Ikuhara had on his mind the entire time, and something he at least regarded as central to the work.

Speaking of the movie in particular, your reaction is certainly not atypical, but I feel it's a shame, as I always do when people haven't yet taken time and examined the movie fully. If you have a moment, please do me the honor of reading a few portions of my own writing on the subject:

It might be safe to say that no other story ever, and certainly no other piece of animated entertainment, has made me think longer and harder than the Utena movie. There are those who love Utena the series, but dismiss the movie as trippy nonsense that lacks the series' weight, meaning and complexity. That seems ludicrous to me because for me at least, the movie posed far more vexing interpretive questions - ones that were also deeply fascinating and rewarding.

If I spent two weeks considering the series, I spent three months contemplating the movie. At times I felt like I was getting nowhere, that my brain was treading water, and then there were the wonderful times when I would make a breakthrough, a piece would fall into place, and...I'd move on to the next gap in the puzzle.

.....

...some would say that the movie is only [as excellent as I think it is] because of the foundation it stands on - the series. While I certainly believe that seeing the series before the movie is by far the best way to experience Utena, drawing parallels between the two is a dangerous and complicated business, and approaching the movie with a viewpoint too strongly bound to the series is a mistake.

The movie is an entirely different animal, and although at times it seems to encourage its viewers to make contrasts with the series, more often it demands that they forget everything the series ever did. In short, the framework of the movie is completely different, and using details from the series to fill in the blanks is an alluring but unsound tactic.

However, let me be clear: while different in specifics, narrative, and presentation, the series and the movie carry an overall message of great unity. Recognizing both the similarities and the differences in how that message is presented is the key to appreciating the full breadth of what Utena as a franchise has to offer.

Think of it as a pair of eyes. Our two eyes see two different pictures, but those separate viewpoints afford us the invaluable perception of depth. That's the case with Utena the series and Utena the movie. The unique elements the movie introduces to convey that unified message are accented by their disparity to the series; likewise, seeing the differences the movie makes can attract your attention more strongly to the unique methods of the series.

.....

In the end Utena and Anthy have succeeded in escaping, body and spirit, from everything that constrained them. Just as the song says, they have "stripped down to nothing at all, become like a rose petal blowing free!" They recline side by side, bare and magnificent, on a most unusual traveling conveyance, gazing blissfully into each other's eyes as they reflect both on the past and on their journey towards the future. As they continue to speed along, Anthy catches Utena's hand in both of hers. It is by no means a safe or certain journey, but they are together. They are in fact, very very close together...

...and then it happens. Anthy's eyelids flutter, and she moves forward tentatively. Utena responds, smiling, and turns her face nearer. Anthy presses ahead, now urgently, and Utena meets her...their lips touch, and their kiss deepens...and deepens...and deepens...

That's our last sight of them: embracing nude, bodies entwined, locked in a kiss that immortalizes their triumph, their joy, and their love. Their two glorious manes of windblown hair, purple and pink, coil together as one stream just for an instant before whipping out of sight. As they disappear from our view, a flurry of rose petals obscures everything, and then nothing is left but a radiant blue sky...

Nothing can equal that. Every time I watch it, every time I even think of it, I am humbled by the power of the movie's finale. As deeply affecting as the climax of the series was, to me the movie is even more fulfilling. This time, Utena and Anthy are together as they depart from Ohtori, and the greatest part of it is that they both made it possible in equal measure.

Like one of her roses, Anthy made Utena bloom. Through teasing invitation and earnest intimacy, she healed Utena's emotional wounds and gave her the chance to become the person she truly wanted to be. In becoming that person, Utena showed Anthy that to be alive means to grow and look ahead, even if it is sometimes scary.

They freed each other, they saved each other, and so many messages are interwoven with their personal happy ending: believing in hope, bettering yourself, holding onto your ideals, facing your fears, finding comfort in sharing your vulnerabilities with another, freeing yourself from past tragedy, allowing yourself to love and be loved, and onward...and onward, in endless permutations, every one of them an exultation of optimism and idealism.

Yet in the midst of that exultation is the same admonition that the series carried, and if you think these things sound naive or maudlin or trite, then here as there, the joke's on you. That may be what I love about Utena most of all. It is an unmerciful indictment against "adult" cynicism and indifference. Not only is it unshakably idealistic, but it impeaches those who refuse to accept that message of idealism.

Thank you for taking the time. If you have not yet grown bored, I would ask you please also to read the character examinations I have written about the movie. They were linked earlier in the thread, but I will reproduce them here:


Akio: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=1818
Utena: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=1835
Anthy: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=1872
Touga: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=1819

Best read in this order. If, after reading them, you still cannot see the movie as having a depth and complexity equal in worth to the series, I will be satisfied that you have at least taken the time to look into it thoroughly. Thank you again for coming here to speak to us directly.

Last edited by Aelanie (12-09-2011 11:31:54 PM)

chrisb wrote:

If the mods feel that my posts revealing JesuOtaku's old ANN posts should be removed feel free to delete them. I didn't mean to cross a line.

You're the one who made the posts, chrisb   You didn't break any rules, since Jesu was not a forum member at the time, so it comes down to your judgment, not mine.  Do you think you crossed a line, or do you think what you said was fair at the time?  I'll delete the posts if Jesu would like me to, but I think this has been a fairly educational discussion in some ways -- so it's up to you!

I'm thrilled to see you on the forum, Jesu!  Glad to hear our little site has been useful to you.  Welcome, and congratulations on overcoming a prejudice that I know from my own experience can take a while to quash!

Jesuotaku wrote:

My thoughts on homosexuality are not remotely the same as they were when I wrote that post on ANN, and I apologize to those who found it offensive, because it is pretty offensively ignorant. A little bit of background on myself: I was raised by extremely conservative Christian parents, who are homophobic and only allowed me access to certain materials in learning about it if they addressed it at all. Now I'm cut off from them by my own choice, a choice that was not fun by any means, but I felt, necessary, and I guess that's all I'll say about it. I'm a strong defender of gay rights, I fully admit that I was wrong when I made the statements I made on that forum, and I apologize. I'm not really the same person I was three years ago, and I hope some of you who have gone through phases of struggle, rediscovery, depression, etc., can understand that.

I'm really happy to hear that those opinions are ones you no longer support, and understand where you are coming from when you talk about conservative parents.   I grew up in a small rural town that was deeply religious and conservative, with a racist, sexist, homophobic and domineering father and a mother while, who was kinder and more accepting, still carried a lot of prejudices herself.  I was a conservative christian for most of my life, more relevantly I considered homosexuality to be a sin until I met a girl who became and still is the closest and most dearest friend I've ever had, and is homosexual.  If that didn't happen I don't what kind of person I would be, and the journey to becoming who I am concerning these issues was a long one, and is not over. 

Also, it has left me with (this may surprise some people on this forum, actually) with a lingering affection for religion.  I may no longer believe in God, and the more intolerant or damaging aspects of some it and the forcefulness of some religious people does anger me, but I still respect people's right to belief and lend them the benefit of the doubt that an individual may not act in the way other members of their religion are known to or are stereotyped to act. 

Jesuotaku wrote:

As for the comments I made back on D2B about Utena as a shoujo-ai, they weren't related to me thinking "homosexuality was bad" or anything like that at all. I was simply saying there was *more* to Utena and her discovery of character than "she's a lesbian" because I thought that was a silly dismissal of what is a more "revolutionary" exploration of character that has to do with her identity as a person, her sexuality, etc., basically: I was simply arguing that Utena is more than a romance story. Utena falling in love with Anthy and vice versa (or love-hate, heh heh,) is absolutely a footnote compared to the greater themes at hand not only for her character but everyone else, Juri, Touga, Miki, etc., so my point was simply that it really annoyed me when people promoted Utena as a shoujo-ai. Well, yes, technically there is shoujo-ai in it, along with shonen-ai, incest, etc. but I wouldn't advertise it that way because the core of the series is not about two women falling in love, it's about a million much more fascinating themes. Saying the point of Utena is that she turns out to be a lesbian is both not the point of the series and not even all that accurate: she loves Anthy, but it's not a story about women being in love like Strawberry Panic or Maria Watches Over Us. That's dismissive of the real Utena TV series to me.

With what is bolded I certainly agree, SKU is no simple romance story, and there are many on this very forum who do not see much overt romance between Utena and Anthy -but it does have a purpose and a meaning in the story, it's not really just a footnote or an unimportant subplot.  Lesbianism in SKU represents minority individuals and deviating from the norms of what society claims people (especially women) must do in order to be happy -imagining a new path.  This is why so many fans, gay, lesbian or otherwise, resonate so much with their relationship or what it could potentially be, and why some refer to it as a shoujo-ai.  It's not that some call it that because it is like other shoujo-ai (although it certainly carries certain imagery and tropes found in shoujo-ai), but in that this is what shoujo-ai should be.  Where you can have lesbianism and it not be treated as something so out of the ordinary that the entire story circles around its peculiarity, but is seamlessly interwoven with it.   It is an important theme, even if it's just platonic and not romantic love, and it is fascinating to others.  The fans that gain a feeling of happiness and acceptance at seeing two lesbians in an anime that isn't being exploitative (or even only choosing to interpret it that way) are certainly not all “dismissing” the work.  A lot of the essays and analysis on this site that have naught to do with Utena and Anthy were written by people who find happiness in believing that Utena and Anthy fall in love after the series.  They see romance and they also critically consume and study the story and other aspects of it. 

I'm sorry if I'm sounding argumentative here, I really don't mean to be.  It was never the implication that you didn't think there was romance between Utena and Anthy that upset me (I can't speak for others) but the way you handled that feeling, how upset you appeared to be at the thought, to the point that you shamed the fans who did it as “dismissing” the “more important” aspects of the show and by Vix's audible all caps when saying it wasn't a shoujo-ai.  Whether that was intentional or not, it did.  I hope you can see how insulting those words sound to people who are coming from backgrounds in which they are constantly told their love is not real love, that their feelings are purely sexual, and that those feelings are not as worthy, deep or important as heterosexual love, and who don't have as many examples of homosexuality in media to gain solace from as we heterosexual people do. 

That similar sort of hurt is why I reacted the way I did to your comments on feminism.  I come from a place where I see from both an educational (Psychology and Criminology student) and real-world standpoint the existence of horrific misogyny and misandry in my day to day life, which is why I identify as a feminist.  I've seen the bruises on my coworker's neck from her abusive husband, and heard the whispers from other coworkers that she probably deserved it.  I've befriended a single mother and survivor of a serial rapists' attack in her own home who has internalized many rape apologia narratives (such as "This would not have happened if other women didn't act like sluts or treat men badly”).  I've seen a girl shamed and laughed at because she politely asked a boy not to put a poster with a rape joke on it in her dorm because she had a friend who was raped and it made her uncomfortable.  I've comforted my friend when she remembered a male friend of hers who was shot and killed for being gay and out.  I've counted on one hand how many women I know personally in my life that I have reasonable evidence to believe have not been raped or sexually assaulted.  I've been laughed at when I tried to  help a male friend out by telling him how to change his tire (not because he knew, but because he didn't believe that I knew), have been sexually physically harassed at work and told to just shake it off, forced aggressively and physically through an open door when I tried to open it for a male friend behind me, and called bitch and uppity by men in my life who are supposed to love me, and sometimes these words have been accompanied by violence. 

It's why when people deny these types of oppression still exist, or recognize they exist but write them off as inevitable or isolated incidents and not at all connected to individual's and societies' attitudes in regards to gender, that I act so reactively, not simply because I believe that inaction helps these injustices to continue unchecked but because I witness them so often.  They are a very real and tangible part of my and others lives, not just a perception.  I apologize for that, I really do, because I do hate the stereotypes applied to feminism and know that in order to correct it anger is not the way to go about it, least of all because it helps no one and does not spread awareness.  Anger and snark are often a part of (online) feminist dialogue, and while I understand where that is coming from and see its usefulness in regards to some situations, it does not educate or reach out to anyone, which is what a movement of any sort should try to do, least of all one that stems from the honest desire to protect and improve people's lives.

I vented here because I didn't want to address you personally, someone whose intelligence I admire, out of fear of how I would present myself and knowledge that whether I like it or not, the slightest action that coincides with a stereotype will be the one that sticks with people, and that to a degree my words and manner would represent other feminists.  This led me to bottling up my feelings and then eventually letting them out in a rant here, where because I know and am friends with many of the members, I feel safer expressing my opinions. 

For me, personally, because of my cautiousness and lack of means, feminism is for the most part of school of study, a list of ideas and perspectives I keep in mind while studying and seeking knowledge and solutions, and not as much about concrete beliefs (aside from valuing equality and recognizing the lack of it).  It causes me to ask questions like, “In this study concerning behaviors of men versus women in regards to lying, how large are the sample sizes, where were they taken from and how were they selected,  who was funding the research, and it does it address sociological causes as well as biological?”instead of simply accepting its interpretation of the results as truth, including when these of studies purport to demean or discriminate men.  If that makes any sense. 

Thank you again for responding here, Jesu.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (12-19-2011 01:15:50 AM)

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Stuff about how the feminazi word is a stupid, strawman word.

THANK YOU! I hate it when people use that word because it is so ridiculous. Especially when you consider that the Nazis hated feminists and were completely against the notion of women being equal to men. The Nazis sent women that they knew were feminists to concentration camps too. The sad thing is, most people, even people who know me well, won't believe me when I point out that the Nazis sent feminists to concentration camps and that's one of the many reasons why it's such a despicable word.

I partly blame the school system for that last one, because up until my junior year of high school, not one of my teachers bothered to mention that Jewish people weren't the only people that the Nazis committed genocide against. But I also think that our horrible stereotypes of feminists are a big problem.

Oh, I definitely don't see it that way. I guess that's why I thought it was funny.

EDIT

And browsing through the interviews collected on this (fabulous) site, this was about the only comment by Ikuhara re: lesbians that I could remember seeing:

Q: Ikuhara-san, Utena and Sailor Moon are two of the most popular anime amongst yuri fans. Do you intentionally include shoujo-ai subtexts in your work?

A: No. I'm still able to make a story where it's between a boy and a girl. But I feel irritated to see my girl getting together with some other guy. I've tried to kill off Tuxedo Mask in Sailor Moon many times. But no matter how many times I tried to kill him, he gets resurrected so I only get angrier. So I decided it would be way better if the girl just didn't have a boyfriend to begin with. Of course I'm just kidding. In reality, if I have a guy in the show, the love relationship gets to have a bigger role than the show. And that would be an interesting element, but I wouldn't want that to make that the scene-stealer of the show. Most other shoujo shows are in that direction. It's about who-and-who are getting together, or who-and-who are breaking up. I thought it would be a loss if that would be the big motif just because a girl was the main character. I think there could be more shows with other motives than that.

Doesn't come across too radical here...in fact, it supports the idea of SKU being about many things other than & in addition to love and lust.

Though I've never been a con handler myself, so I can't really say if he regularly goes around spouting odd propaganda on the subject.

Last edited by icarus (12-19-2011 01:08:25 AM)