I watched the 1st episode and decided to write random notes as I did. I ended up with the following 12 points...

Re-watch Notes Episode 1

1. I really enjoyed Madam Lamer's outburst... I never really cared about it before, but this time it made me laugh...

2. Utena seems to tolerate....maybe even enjoy her fangirls...

3. For something as personal as Utena's 'princely experience' Utena doesn't seem to mind telling people...

4. Why has Tenjou not noticed Saionji before...? It seems super unlikely... (Also Touga has ninja like appearing abilities...)

5. So... in previous watching of SKU I always wondered why the student council was so adament about Saionji stopping his abuse of the Rose Bride. Touga said something along the lines of not drawing the (negative) attention of the Ends of the World. If Touga knows Akio would be upset about someone (other than himself) abusing Anthy...does that mean some Dios like quality still lurks somewhere inside Akio?

6. I think Miki's blushing and general discomfort during that student council meeting was cute.

7. How come no one wants to challenge Saionji? I think Juri could take him >_> Seriously though, Touga's comeback was a thinly veiled threat about a new duelist...really? (in the end he was pretty much right, but still!)

8. ...so how long have Utena and Wakaba known each other?

9. Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku! Truer words have never been spoken...

10. Those lights on the Castle of Eternity (the ones on the spires) look like stars. Anshi is sexy.... like....really hot... and her hair reminds me of those little rams' horns in Yu-Gi-Oh! The ones on those useless coin cards...

11. ...for someone who doesn't seem too interested in Utena, Saionji seems to have the gist of that prince story...

12. Anshi says Gokigenyou which reminds me of Marimite, and Touga says baby, which made me both laugh znd have a Touga-gasm

*wave* I'm Sleepie's friend that she mentioned earlier... I've loved this series for a long time but have never been really involved in the fandom, so I'm looking forward to following along with this and seeing what you all have to say about each episode. :3 I don't know how much I'll be able to contribute since I've only seen the series once. (Gasp.)

I did want to add though, that maybe there would be more discussion if the discussion posts were added on a Friday or a Saturday instead of Sunday? That way people would have the weekend to watch/discuss. I don't know what the activity on this forum is like but if people are more apt to post on weekends then this might work better. Just a thought.

One of the things that I noticed is that Saionji hits Anthy when he can't control her. He's such a control freak, and I'm thinking it's because he's insecure. I also think Utena was totally boss for standing up to Saionji for Wakaba. Shame she had no idea what she was getting into, but it's not like I can complain!

And Mel, I totally second that she kind of likes her fangirls! They're so ecstatic to see her, I think it'd be hard not to!

yo there Solar

ririkins I was upset about those d-bags too... I think Utena was too easy on them

I have to agree with Saionji's displacing his feelings into agression...  that he does it. Also when I saw the obelisk I thought of time passing in years rather than hours or minutes.

Thoughts upon rewatch:

The Rose Bride

-"But was that really such a good idea?"  Wow, less than two minutes into the series and we get a giant load of foreshadowing with that line.

-The initial scenes have a lot of nice background art of the school, too bad they never seem to reuse a bunch of these shots (like the main hall with all the corridors)  I also LOLed at the fan-service shots when Utena is showing off her boy's uniform.

-I notice that when Utena is watching Anthy water the roses, she seems quite content.  Anthy doesn't know she's being watched, so I doubt she's putting on a show; does she genuinely like caring for the plants?

Arki wrote:

...both part of the Student Council? It might just be an early episode slip, but in what way is Anthy really a part of it? Sure, the whole mysterious duels and the fact that she's the prize and key for world domination... Err... I mean revolution, but Wakaba doesn't know this. There's nothing indicative in Anthy's everyday school life which would suggest she's a member of the Student Council, no? She doesn't have one of those customized uniforms. She doesn't get much attention from people at all, whereas other members are practically stars and each has their own personal group of admirers... It's just a little detail I picked up on. I actually don't really think it's relevant. Do you?

I think Wakaba's just misinformed about this (or makes it up to explain why Anthy and Saionji spend so much time together).  None of the other Council members or students treat her as such, and she only shows up to meetings if her Engaged takes her along.

-I love how Utena seems completely at ease with the Rose Gate and the crazy stairs, but freaks out when she sees the castle.  It's not that much weirder than the rest of what she's seen so far, is it?  Also, she notes two times in this episode that the smell of roses surrounding Anthy is familiar, yet doesn't actually connect Anthy and the Prince until way later on.  Good Lord, Utena is dense.

-Oh man, the way Touga says "baby" while he's watching Utena cracks me up EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.  Line delivery FTW!

For Whom the Rose Smiles

-Episode two, and the Student Council is already doing silly things during their meetings.  Maybe playing cards isn't as odd as shadow baseball, but it's still plenty strange.  In this scene, and episode one as well, Touga refers to End of the World as "them", which could imply that he hasn't met Akio yet.

-When Wakaba is complaining about the dorm arrangements, Utena says that "The Student Council decides these things."  Really, since when?  Another instance where the Council is implied to have more power than what we actually see.

-Anthy is the champ of playing dumb, isn't she?  She shrugs off Utena's questions and the matter rests for quite a while.  Also, why isn't Utena questioning why her Prince gave her a duelists' ring?  You'd think that would stick out as an unusual coincidence, but she doesn't question it at all.

-Utena kinda comes off as a bitch when she saves Anthy from Saionji's man handling.  Saying, "I don't care about the Rose Bride" when Anthy is right there, smiling when she says she's going to lose on purpose.  I mean, damn, I know the whole being engaged thing was unwanted, but Utena being so mean-spirited in this scene seems way out of line with her princely ideals.  And yet, after the duel, her initial coolness towards Anthy goes away almost immediately.

-Man, I'd forgotten just how creepy Anthy's creepy smiles really are.  *shudder*

Arki wrote:

(6) Holy non-consensual possession Batman! Utena wanted to lose the duel, but oh-oh... Here comes Dios to make it all impossible. Is it just me or is this a foreshadowing of the fact that it isn't really up to Utena whether she wins or loses? Or in other words, that's she's just a puppet in a larger scheme?

My impression has always been that Utena does, in fact, change her mind about throwing the duel. She seems surprised herself when she dodges Saionji's blow, but after his little rant about the winning and losing, he looks pretty steely and resolved. I don't think she won against her will.

I feel so lame for only just now watching the episodes, but with the new Xbox in the apartment, my roommates are always using the TV..
But since I told other people its okay to post whenever as long as its during the week, I shouldn't feel so bad, but I started the thread! Anyway:


1) - "The Rose Bride"

The bodyless voice asking Utena to join the basketball team: symbolic of anything or just one of those typical weird Ohtori moments?

"Someone as cool as him would never fall for a girl like her." I love Wakaba, but this line is just typical girls hating on other girls and being insecure/jealous. However, I have to wonder if lines like this are foreshadowing about Anthy's role as a witch and her "stealing" the prince from the princesses/not being worthy.

Miki and Juri both repeating "as he pleases," in the student council meeting about Saionji treating Anthy how he likes. I don't have anything in particular to say about Juri's reaction, she just seemed amused. But Miki's reaction.. looking nervous, sweating, etc.. Miki may be an "innocent" character but to me he always seems like he's repressing something. With his reaction to "as he please," you can tell some not-so-innocent things are running through his mind but he feels guilty/nervous about thinking these things..

Saionji putting the letter up - or Anthy? I think this has been debated before. I'm pretty definitely sure it was Anthy, as Saionji has no reason to do it. But I have to wonder why he lied and said he did, if he was lying. I think he's just being a pompous jerk - in this episode before Utena whoops his ass he's at the height of victory and on a high horse, so he's extra jerk-like. But I really have no reason to think he would actually post that letter up.. it just doesn't seem like him.

Shadow play segment - This one was so straightforward. "Be careful brave hero, there are rules in the forest." Yeeah, easy.

"Miracle. Trick of the light." About the upside-down castle. Then why does Saionji want to take Anthy up there later on? Does he really believe its just a trick of the light? Or maybe he changes his mind?

Before the duel, when Anthy wishes Utena good luck, gets slapped by Saionji, and shows her overtly submissive behavior.. I honestly thought it was Anthy just being her typical manipulative self and purposely getting a rise out of Saionji so that he would hit her and that Utena would be compelled to fight harder in the duel. But after Utena just simply says something like "Yeah, I'm going to beat him," and walks off, Anthy looks genuinely surprised. I wonder why.



2) - For Whom the Rose Smiles

Touga isn't my favorite, but his chick and egg speech makes me melt every time I hear him say it. And the elevator music.

Why is Utena waiting outside the dorm room after she opens it the first time? This part always confused me.

I love how Anthy seems to lose her composure and get irritated about all of Utena's questions about the duels. And then shuts her up by asking Utena why she wears the boy's uniform. Anthy normally seems so polite, but here she seems a little annoyed.

What is Juri's role in the student council? I forgot. Did she have one? Was it something with public relations?

I wonder how Anthy prepped Utena for this duel. "Yeah, so, you pull the sword out of my chest." "...What?"

Anthy looks surprised when Utena wins, even with Utena summoning Dios for the first time.. but you would think Anthy would expect it. Maybe even if she controls Dios, she doesn't realize it at the same time.. like that saying, "you can't control your feelings." Maybe she believes one thing, but feels something else and is genuinely surprised that she has hope in Utena when Dios appears. I don't know.

Saionji KICKING UTENA OW OW OW.

And the end of the episode when Utena says she didn't win the duel for Anthy, but for Chuchu - and Anthy smiles. I always thought Utena seemed a bit mean here, but I guess it was just Utena's way of saying she really did it for Anthy. At least Anthy saw through it.

Melancholic_Soul wrote:

I watched the 1st episode and decided to write random notes as I did. I ended up with the following 12 points...

Re-watch Notes Episode 1

2. Utena seems to tolerate....maybe even enjoy her fangirls...

3. For something as personal as Utena's 'princely experience' Utena doesn't seem to mind telling people...

2. Yeah, I think its clear that Utena has a big head when it comes to her fangirls.. hey, at least she isn't perfect and humble though.

3. I think its because her "princely" memory is sugar-coated and idealistic, whereas the real memory would be way too personal and traumatic to share. But the sugar-coated, super fluffy happy idealistic version is okay. She really does love telling that story though. Maybe it helps her to keep believing it.

Arki wrote:

(1) The scene when Wakaba jumps Utena right after Saionji gives it to Anthy.

Utena:  So, is Saionji going out with that Himemiya girl?
Wakaba:  Not even! Tough old Saionji-sama could never have any feelings for a girl like her.
Wakaba:  The only reason they're together is because they're both part of the Student Council.

...both part of the Student Council? It might just be an early episode slip, but in what way is Anthy really a part of it? Sure, the whole mysterious duels and the fact that she's the prize and key for world domination... Err... I mean revolution, but Wakaba doesn't know this. There's nothing indicative in Anthy's everyday school life which would suggest she's a member of the Student Council, no? She doesn't have one of those customized uniforms. She doesn't get much attention from people at all, whereas other members are practically stars and each has their own personal group of admirers... It's just a little detail I picked up on. I actually don't really think it's relevant. Do you?

Yeah, I think it might just have been a goof/error. The only explanation I can think of is that A) Wakaba sees Saionji and Anthy together a lot B) Wakaba doesn't want to believe that Saionji is together with a "girl like her." C) Wakaba knows that Saionji is part of the student council. D) Wakaba makes the connection that hey, maybe they're just working together on the Student Council or something.
I don't know. That's still iffy though. But it would be like Wakaba to be in denial that Saionji and Anthy are really dating.

Arki wrote:

(3) Saionji's attitude towards the duelling game and Anthy.

Saionji:  Of course. The power to revolutionize the world belongs to me.
Saionji:  For someone like her to be engaged to the Bride would be a travesty.
Touga:  That can't be helped. No matter what you say, she...
Touga:  Himemiya Anthy, will become engaged to the Victor of the Duel.
Saionji:  NO! She belongs to me!
Saionji:  She wrote explicitly in our exchange diary that she'd obey me forever.

The exchange between Touga and Saionji made me feel that Saionji's desire to have the power to revolutionize the world has little to do with the actual things he could do with that power, but instead with the inalienable right he believes he has towards it. The power won't give him power to get what he wants. He deserves to get what he wants. Even as someone who lost the duel (and assuming, the power to revolutionize the world), it's still his destiny and right to have it, because he's Saionji Kyouichi.

In the same way he believes Anthy is meant to obey him forever regardless of who she's engaged to at the moment. He believes they have something which transcends the duels themselves ("Himemiya Anthy, will become engaged to the Victor of the Duel." / "NO! She belongs to me!") and finds some sort of confirmation in their exchange diary. So it's okay for him to treat Anthy like shit, because Anthy wrote her compliance in the diary.

But that's not how things are, right? Anthy was pleasing Saionji simply because she was engaged to him. When Saionji found that out, there was a moment of genuine sadness, followed by another smack down. He was disappointed and, well, kind of cheated. It doesn't really matter that he was abusive towards Anthy - that's a character flaw he has to sort with himself. But the fact he was cheated into believing something which is a lie, is Anthy's fault and smacked HIM down. I believe he's hurt. It's just his way of coping (violence) which makes him look like a compete jerk.

I never thought about it that way before, but I think you're on to something. Its not specifically the power to revolutionize the world that Saionji wants.. Its just the promise of eternity. That's all he wants. If Anthy was engaged to him she could of said what he wanted to hear. What could be more eternal than the belief that he and Anthy are meant to be together no matter who the victor of the duels is? Of course, he could have believed that he would always be the victor of the duels at first, because his love with Anthy is so meant-to-be, but after Utena beat him he had to come to some kind of defense - that the duels didn't matter and that Anthy was meant to be his. Eternity, eternity, eternity.


I have to wonder why/how Utena changed her mind/didn't change her mind about purposely losing the duel. I couldn't come up with a decision from watching it again. It could be a lot of things.. her thinking about Anthy.. but from watching her, such as when Saionji said "you put your own life in front of the rose," it seems like deep down, Utena doesn't want to really lose for whatever reason.
And then Dios takes over. So I don't know..

ArsenicForBreakfast wrote:

-I notice that when Utena is watching Anthy water the roses, she seems quite content.  Anthy doesn't know she's being watched, so I doubt she's putting on a show; does she genuinely like caring for the plants?

I honestly think that Anthy genuinely enjoys spending time with the roses and animals, much much more than she enjoys spending time with people. Plants and animals don't hurt her like people do.


Dude, I never realized until Clarice pointed it out that Wakaba is the first character you meet. Pretty interesting.


Edit: So... it was Libra, Scorpio.. or Virgo? According to Empty Movement, Saionji is the Virgo. No Libras though, and I thought Mikage was a Scorpio but no, he's a Sagittarius. Wait, Keiko is a Libra?
I somehow think the horoscopes aren't really relevant to any characters.. unless it was Virgo, which is Saionji.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (03-17-2010 11:41:58 PM)

minervana wrote:

What I don't understand is how other students don't notice that she, erm, never ages. Or does she age? Has she been in the same grade forever, like that guy in Twilight? Does she hit the "reset button" after her high school class graduates? Maybe people just assume that she's so stupid she can't pass junior high, so she stays in it forever, and eventually they graduate and move on and forget about her.

5. Also, why would little Utena have completely forgotten about her promise to rescue that little girl? Why did she become fixated on the prince?

The first thing -- we're shown at the very end that people's memories are purposely "faulty" in Ohtori...hell, we're shown it the whole way through, come to think of it. Mikage and Professor Nemuro are prime examples (both as forgetter and forgettee), and then the student body's inability to clearly remember Utena is the other clear example. Maybe that's why we see Wakaba at the beginning and at the end...she's the ordinary student, going on with her ordinary life...despite having known Utena, and despite having had her own moment of extraordinariness. Although that's really a topic for the Black Rose Arc rewatch.

The second thing -- Utena focuses on the Prince for probably two reasons. Firstly, she wanted to rescue the girl because the Prince told her that only a Prince could do it, so naturally Utena imprints on Dios as a role model. She hasn't forgotten her promise, she's just kind of screwed up the reason for making it. Secondly, I'm of the opinion she blocked out a lot of her memory of the little girl because it was traumatising. It still exists in her, she still wants to be a Prince, but in lieu of the memory of the little girl she focuses on the more pleasant memory of Dios (who wasn't hanging on a thousand swords of hatred). Which is therefore likely reflected in the later dynamic between Akio, Utena and Anthy; Utena fixates on Anthy first, wanting to save her, but when the "Prince" comes in she's so dazzled by Akio she forgets all about saving Anthy.

...but, again, I'm getting ahead of myself.

About the first episode

I find it odd that Utena and Wakaba are friends and Wakaba has never heard her prince story. Come on, that's what Utena says just after introducing herself. I am a little bit surprised that Utena doesn't want other women to be stronger which is kind of bad because it means she wants them to need her.

Now I think it would be really a piece of cake for Anthy to post Wakaba's love letter. Actually, I think she may have made some decisions instead of The End of the World when the duel schedules were made.

When I watched SKU for the first time I wasn't so focused on Saionji. Now I made it up a little bit.

The castle in the sky - doesn't that look as a place where no one can go? Just like the end of the rainbow where treasures are said to be. In the first episode Saionji knows it's a mirage but he is still trying to get there. Why? What kind of person it makes him? Stupid? Naive? Romantic? Masochistic? Maybe he's more immersed in his childhood dreams than I thought before?

Saionji seems to be so unsecure in the world he lives. He desperately tries to build his self-image based on his society life - him as a victor, him as a kendo champion, him as a owner of a bride. He needs a status, a title, a name for feeling safe. When Anthy calls him Saionji-senpai istead of Saionji-sama it's like loosing a personality.

Exactly the same feeling that Utena will experience later.

After the first duel Utena says "Oh well, better just forget about it!" and I'm amused how much it says about her.

I am not surprised that I admired Utena so much when I was 12. Her bravery and sense of justice is really something.

dlaire: I am not surprised that I admired Utena so much when I was 12. Her bravery and sense of justice is really something.

I first saw her at 27 and admired the heck out of her then, and still do. She's like...the kinda person I wish I could be.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Saionji is kind of complicated -he feels like he deserves certain things because he's had to work for them  -We always see Saionji practicing Kendo, but he's beaten by Touga who appears to practice very little anymore-, but doesn't feel that he's good enough to receive them, fears that (partly due to Touga) some things are inborn.

I think this is key. Inborn differences are talked about and hinted at constantly throughout the series. There's an aristocracy at the school, who didn't earn their genius, good looks, wealth and so on, but they have it, the others don't, and they can't take it away from them.

This is touched on a lot through the series. There are maybe five or six students who are  the "shining stars" Akio talks about in Episode 20: Utena, Touga, Juri, Miki, Ruka and (depending on how you count) Anthy and Mikage. Their power comes from within themselves, even if it's a sort of steadfast conviction rather than talent (e.g. Utena). The rest believe their power comes, at least in part, from association with these few, rather than some internal conviction or talent. Akio's power comes, at least in part, from getting all of these students, regardless of inborn talent, to stunt and warp their full potential as he so wishes.

Maybe Anthy was planning to manipulate Utena in that scene but didn't expect her to actually care? I don't know.

I'm sorry you two got behind! If anyone doesn't like the sunday arrangement, let me know and I can try to change it to a more convenient day. Whatever works for everyone.

But for now:

Episode 3 - "On the Night of the Ball"






Episode 4 - "The Sunny Garden - Prelude"






Yikes.. looks like the Sunny Garden episodes will be split up in two weeks.

The most important thing about the first two episodes is Saionji's laugh in the first one where he's like I DARE ANY OF YOU TO CHALLENGE ME SHE'S MINE MINE BWAHAHAHAHA.
How can something be so plainly thick with inferiority and overcompensation and still make me melt, squeal, and soak myself all at once?

Seeing it now like this, the first episodes seem so out of place in the larger context of the show, style-wise. Ikuhara, as I recall, explicitly stated he was trying to win over the shoujo fans with the first arc, and you can really tell--the characters are just cookie-cutter enough to pass for it. Compared to later on, they're almost two-dimensional, and not because they haven't been developed yet. It seems almost like these episodes were waving a bishonen and genki carrot in front of the relatively young audience like 'here kitty kitty'...until the episode where Nanami kills one. There's the suggestion of more there, absolutely, but I can just see that carrot. (Which, as I recall, appears later in Touga's possession, at a point where no one is just a bishonen anymore and there isn't a scrap of genki to be found.)

Some of you might remember that there was a time when I took serious issue with Touga. There was a section of Empty Movement devoted to my hatred of him. (AUCT, or Advocates for the Unanesthetized Castration of Touga) I've since forgiven him, and accepted that he is, at times, stupidly hot, and at others, an interesting and dynamic character. (That was grossly misinterpreted back when I hated him--I actually hated his fandom, who managed to take a raging asshole like that and imagine him a prince. Like a serious prince. And people criticize Utena for being blind?)
The 'baby, you've set my heart on fire' line, however, hurts as much now as it did back then. Seriously, jesus. If that's how he talks when he's alone I'm glad you almost never see him alone. I shudder to think what comes out of Akio's mouth* when no one's looking.

*Touga?

PS. I watched on time!! Unfortunately I've been kinda drowning in work so I don't get to write a huge analysis this time around. By the time we get to the darker stuff though I should be out of school and able to rage maniacally about how much I love Akio and wonder how Juri can be so prudish in such a comparatively liberal environment.

PPS

Melancholic_Soul wrote:

5. So... in previous watching of SKU I always wondered why the student council was so adament about Saionji stopping his abuse of the Rose Bride. Touga said something along the lines of not drawing the (negative) attention of the Ends of the World. If Touga knows Akio would be upset about someone (other than himself) abusing Anthy...does that mean some Dios like quality still lurks somewhere inside Akio?

I think Touga's talking out his ass. Akio gains by having people be cruel, especially physically cruel, to Anthy. Reminds her of the side she needs to be on, and all. I've always assumed Saionji was meant to win his last duel, if only temporarily--which suggests Akio doesn't exactly mind Saionji kicking the crap out of her. And if he does take issue with it, it's only in so far as DON'T FUCK WITH MY TOYS. My chef's knife looks like a hurricane hit it, and I still get mad when others use it.

Melancholic_Soul wrote:

7. How come no one wants to challenge Saionji? I think Juri could take him >_> Seriously though, Touga's comeback was a thinly veiled threat about a new duelist...really? (in the end he was pretty much right, but still!)

I think it's kinda like bid-sniping on eBay. They all know they can take him, so they're biding their time to steal her away at the last minute.