You plan on creating another essay with this Razara?

Razara wrote:

Tamago wrote:

You plan on creating another essay with this Razara?

No, I don't plan on writing anymore essays. I just want to talk about symbolism in this thread.

In that case, i will have to wait until I rewatch some of the episodes before I can contribute properly to this thread as my mind is a blank at this time.

I think it was in Dante's Inferno that they said if people who committed suicide ever came back, they'd be bushes with their corpses hanging off them, while everyone else could come back as people.

...I'm not sure if that was how it went or where it came from, but the dress on the branches always reminds me of that...

Are you sure you don't want to turn this into an essay, Razara? I think it would be an excellent addition to the analysis section, and all you would have to do is rewrod a bit so that it's an essay and not a forum post (take out things like 'you guys' or 'I have to think about this more').

I'd love to see it, you're great at the analysis.

I love this thread *__*

Alarm wrote:

Ha, when I first saw this pic and the next one you posted, I thought of this:

(DEAD LINK)

Whether it has any connection or not, I don't know. But I'll think about it a bit.

Razara wrote:

This could refer to reincarnation. All the while, a sprout begins to grow from her remains. When something dies, it helps bring new life to the earth by returning nutrients to the soil. Without this process, plants would never be able to grow, and all life would eventually cease because of it.

Or, like Tokiko says in the end of episode 22: "Say, even you should know. To bear fruit, flowers have to cast off their petals."

Razara wrote:

How to explain this… Every time Utena thinks about Akio, she feels as though she is betraying Anthy and her prince, so the candle flickers. The first candle goes out when Akio offers to give Utena a ride to the hospital, just as she was going to say something important to Anthy. That candle goes out because she feels as though she has betrayed Anthy. As Akio is hitting on Utena in the car, the candles begin to flicker more strongly than before, just as her loyalty to her prince is wavering. At the beginning of the episode, she was thinking about how the kiss Dios gave her was her first kiss. The second candle goes out when Akio kisses her, because she has betrayed her prince.

Funeral bells sound, and we see that it is Anthy who was holding the candles…

I'll add a bit.
The third candle goes out in the end of episode 33. This is where Utena gets completely side-tracked because of Akio. I think the candles also represent Utena herself and her aspiration to be a prince. Everytime the candles flicker she begins to doubt in herself and the way she's living her life. She begins to think that perhaps she cannot be a prince and that's why she feels she is betraying Anthy. Ironically, she doesn't even remember she's supposed to become Anthy's prince. The guilt comes from the fact that Akio is Anthy's brother and she doesn't even know if Akio was her prince or not. If Utena was to get close with Akio like that then she'd be betraying Anthy 'cause she can't have them both, as seen later on, she has to make a choice. Also, that choice wasn't only about Anthy or Akio, it was also about who she wanted to be as a person and how she would like to live her life.
So in short: the candles show how Utena is considering leaving her old self behind. The candles don't give any info about what would become of her, except the scene of candles going out feels very grim as it's connected to death (honestly, I don't know where I'm getting this from. I've just always thought like that about candles going out).



Also, here's my contribution. I've been thinking of posting this to the existentialism thread, but I guess it doesn't matter so much. And hey, there was no thread like this here yesterday!

Among other things, I'm going to discuss the most obvious and widely used symbol of the show....roses! A little warning though: this interpretation is based on existentialistic view-point and I'm going to bring in eternity again.


The way the roses are portrayed in the show made me think that there's definitely something special about it. Of course, the roses have other meanings, too, than the one I'm trying to bring out, but it's interesting to see how they are entwined in the story and visuals so often and they appear nearly everywhere.


Eternity is a very important theme in the show and the (DEAD LINK) are one of the ways to carry that motif. As known, eternity is everlasting, infinite -- that which never ends. One of the easiest ways to show something that is eternal is by making it repeat itself. Make it go in circles, endless cycles. 

Firstly, there's the duelling arena. Or more precicely, the stairway to the duelling arena. See how it's spiralled? Spirals are endless by their nature.

(DEAD LINK)

It's also important to note how Utena had to walk up those stairs many many times. What's more is that they actually show it to us over and over again every time she goes to duel. I think this greatly emphasizes that the path Utena walks can also be eternal as long as she's part of the duelling game. Note that when Utena goes to duel Touga for the second time they don't show us how she climbs those stairs like usual. I think the reason for this is the duel itself. This is the only time when Utena goes to the duelling arena for selfish reasons. The eternity in this scene is portrayed from Utena's point of view. If she was to fight for others then she'd end up doing that for a long time, hence the reason why they've made it look 'eternal' in most cases. And when she goes to fight for herself  then it's made to seem as if it's an alternate way of living, something that can be uneternal, or that which may end abrupty.
Why I said it was uneternal from Utena's point of view, is because acting on one's own behalf can also have an never-ending effect. Namely in Anthy's case.

Moving on, there's the gondola.

(DEAD LINK)

While the gondola itself isn't spiralling as the stairs are, the motif is still the same here. See how the edges of the staircase spiral on the walls of the gondola. This is because the gondola is spinning around (gah, don't they get dizzy? o_O) . And so is the rose symbol on the floor of the gondola (more about the roses below). The same story goes for this as for the stairs.

Next, the roses. Don't the spinning roses ever mess up your head? They do that to me whenever they appear in seemingly random places (excluding the rose framed scenes for now). The reason why I pointed out the spiralling staircase and the gondola above is because the spinning rose are just the same. I'm not going to get into the colour symbolism here, but here's what I think.
If the roses weren't spinning then they wouldn't have much to do with eternity here, but I thought that there must be a reason why the roses are spinning like that, especially in a way they're used in the show.

The single spinning roses that appear in certain scenes or on a certain moment are there to bring out the conflict between the reality and the illusions (and also dreams) that many characters are dealing with. Here's an example:

Episode 37 (the Cantarella scene)

Anthy:  What will you be doing in ten years?
Utena:  I dunno. But...
Anthy:  But?
Utena:  But I hope we can be together like this drinking tea then.
Anthy:  Yes. I hope so too.
Utena:  I'm sure that'll be great.
Utena:  Let's have tea and laugh together ten years from now, okay?
Utena:  Promise?
Anthy:  Yes. Definitely.


Here's where they are having a conversation about their future...


...and here's where there's nobody having a conversation or drinking tea.

What does that mean? The way I interprete it is that the second shot is actually ten years later. This could either mean that
1) the promise they're making cannot be kept (Anthy's thoughts) or that
2) tens years later they are not there (Anthy's view point), but they might still be together drinking tea, just elsewhere (what Utena might think).

Most likely it's both. As for the eternity in this particular scene, it shows how Anthy is to remain what she is, that she cannot possibly keep that promise she's making. And this is all because Anthy believes that she should be like this, that she has no other option and that she deserves it. Her eternity is her mindset from which she is unable to break free herself. Utena on the other thinks anything's possible, that she can drink tea and laugh with Anthy in ten years. Ten years is a long time and many things can change, even the fact that you might not be friends with someone. She believes in her naivete that they can keep the promise. The biggest difference here is that she's ready to do anything to keep that promise. And by later attempting to do that she proves Anthy that Anthy doesn't have to be in her eternal and never-changing condition. The bottom line is that the spinning rose represents innerconflicts of certain characters, depending on the situation.

It's not just the roses, eternity is tied to so many things in SKU, the duel songs (just so I could mention "Spira Mirabilis" ), the memories that the characters have, etc. You know, I could go on about this for a long time but this post is already so long. I'll spare you.

edit: gahhh, I suck at spelling. *shakes fist*

Last edited by Maarika (02-03-2007 01:58:37 AM)

Don't spare us! Don't spare us, please!

I know this is Razara's thing that she's grabbed, but if I may throw something out...

I think the umbrellas represent Keiko's ambition and desire. She desires more. She wants to be close to Touga, she wants to be out of Nanami's shadow, she wants to overachieve like a bandit. By offering to share her umbrella with Touga she's reaching for what she desires. Perhaps when I'm more awake I'll find some supporting evidence for this.

A Day Without Me wrote:

I did not read most of the posts here, but the screencap with Utena having the Shadow Girls covering her mouth and ears makes me think of the whole 'Speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil' deal. She's already seen evil, in a way, so why bother trying to shield her from it any more? But she shouldn't speak evil, as that would invalidate her as a prince, and she has yet to hear evil.

I think she might have heard evil too, but the gesture suggest that she shouldn't listen to it. ;D Utena is indeed an unspoiled girl, so this whole scene could be interpreted as a warning. Utena is quite close to changing and when someone changes then there are usually different possible outcomes; in this case perhaps it's a warning that Utena shouldn't lose her purity.

Anyway, I wanted to continue with the spinning roses thing and randomly picked episode 15 for that. There's also so much other stuff in it that I can't look past. Another long post... And eternity (sorry, I can't get over it!).

First off, this episode is about sibling relationships in general, and most of it is shown through Kozue. I hope I won't get side-tracked with all the stuff in it...




Utena:  It's there, to be sure, and usually it's something useless and of little concern,
Utena:  but every now and then you look up to it and feel a certain degree of comfort, hmm?

I love the moon symbolism. You know you watch too much Utena when you can't look at the moon the same way again.
Anyway, Utena was having a conversation with Akio earlier about sibling relationships and said she didn't understand it very well (I suppose it might be rather hard to understand if you don't have any siblings). Then Akio handed her a slide with a picture of the moon in it, and tells her the exact thing Utena quotes in the end of the episode while looking up to the moon. The moon is an allegory of a sibling. Even if we are not together with our brothers or sisters we know they're still out there and that they're our siblings no matter what. Does that sound eternal or what? You don't virtually lose your sibling in any way: not when you grow up, not when you get married, or when they do -- they'll always be the same for us.

Kozue's and Miki's relationship is a bit (haha) messed up. Both of them are stuck in the past they shared. When they were little, Kozue used to get all the attention from Miki that she wanted. As people grow older they start to notice others around them, Kozue didn't like that because Miki paid her less attention, her entire world revolved around her brother and the fact that she was starting to lose something that important caused her lots of distress.

Even though Miki and Kozue are twins, they are still two separate persons who walk their own path in life. Just like the wind - no one can tell where the wind will blow, it chooses its own path. Why should we expect our siblings to do as we please? They're not us nor do they belong to us, they're suppose to be free just like the wind. Kozue wished to be close to Miki and that's why she didn't want him to be with anyone else.

Gaah, before I get any more side-tracked, here's something about the wind symbolism:



Panned shot. Too awesome to post as an image

What did I say about the wind above? This is the scene where Miki goes to visit Himemiya to ask her to play the piano with him. They never showed us before that Utena and Anthy have a cool wind bell/chime (whatever it's called in English) on their dorm window. That's 'cause it's no regular wind bell, it's an allegorical/symbolic bell! What's symbolic about it are the moments you can hear it chime. When Miki finally asks Himemiya what he wanted, we hear a bell chime. The wind does blow where it wants, just like Miki wants to live his own life. Perhaps even include some other people in his life besides her sister.

Moving on! Ohh, this is interesting! Another one of those WTF moments during the Student Council meetings.
But I'm going to start from the beginning. As you know, Touga was in no condition to continue the Student Council (or any other) business so Nanami filled in for him.



Nanami:  If the egg's shell does not break, the chick will die without being born.
Nanami:  The chamber of freedom and the cage of freedom...
Nanami:  ...without showing the vastness of the skies, they cherish the chick.
Nanami:  Break the world's cage!
Nanami&Jur:  For the sake of revolutionizing the world!

What's this? I don't remember this being in "Demian"! What's very cool about it, though, is that it fits perfectly with this episode. The point of it would be that people shouldn't cling to each other so obsessivly and selfishly. This means if we truly love others we should learn how to let them go. Everyone deserves their freedom, and without being free one cannot live their life as effectively as possible. This is about breaking useless chains and links we have on others. Also, what it tries to say is that by keeping someone away from the world and life, they might gain some security from it, but it definitely keeps them away from all the good and fun things too. In the end they'll remain the same and might not fit into the real world anymore. It goes well with the theme of the show too, I don't know how Nanami came up with this speech, but Kozue's definitely not the only one who should learn a few things from it.


So on to the point of the meeting:


Nanami:  From now on, I will act as my brother's proxy.


Nanami:  I do have the qualifications. Any complaints?


Juri:  None here.


Miki:  None here.

Juri:  Except...
Nanami:  Except...?


Juri:  We don't seem to get letters from the Ends of the World lately.

Obviously, this has something to do with wind again. Compared to the previous example, it's not that simplified here.
So... Nanami decided to be Touga's substitute during his absence. She gets to be the Student Council president, and yet she never even was a member of the Student Council. One thing's certain though: she's the one who's running things around here now. Hence why she has the fan pointed at the direction where she's looking. Here I'd consider it a symbol of power, she's the one to decide what the others will be doing because she's the leader of the group. Notice how Juri and Miki have their backs turned to her when she talks to them. Is this how you treat the leader?

Could this mean that while they don't necessarily have anything against Nanami being superior to them, they also don't want to directly agree with her? That even though she is the President and everything, they can still do as they please. Or maybe this shows how people can ignore others even if the ones who are being ignored are someone important. This actually makes much more sense in this episode's context. After all, Miki had been ignoring Kozue several times because he had other people to deal with. Yay for allegory!

And then there's the last shot with Juri and the windmills (...are they called windmills? I'm not sure what they're called in English ). Windmills only work if there's some wind; in this case all the wind seems to be generated from Nanami's fan. In other words, you have to work really hard to get some result. See how this time Juri is paying some attention to Nanami while speaking to her. Even though she's facing her sideways shows that she isn't completely ignoring her, her pose makes it look that she's relaxed and probably really thinking about her own stuff. Is this a proper way to respond to your superiors? Now, in Miki's and Kozue's case this would be similiar: Kozue's trying hard to capture Miki's attention but Miki is so distracted by the world surrounding him that he doesn't want to give her it, or thinks it's not important.

More (yay, almost done with this...even though I skipped so many scenes):



THIS is what I was planning to make my post about. All the other info above is very relevant though.
Anyway, this is the scene where Miki's about to walk in the piano class. Kozue had just previously visited the Nemuro Memorial Hall and was waiting for Miki in the piano room. She was playing "The Sunlit Garden" and as we know, that song is also symbolic.   When she's playing that song, the spinning rose appears. This song is what connects past and present and happiness for both Kozue and Miki. Miki's shining thing is almost the same in its nature as is Kozue's. We don't know what sort of eternity she's after, she never talks about it, but we do know that it's her brother's attention that means the most to her. For a brief time when she plays that song, both of them have their childhood happiness in their mind. Something that's been lost for them both in their present time...

Aaaaand before the last screenshot, here's some bonus stuff! Duel song analysis! (I won't get in too much detail though)

FPFE:  Time Machine
FPFE:  My childhood when I was so adorable.
FPFE:  Making a lotus carpet,
FPFE:  Playing with dolls,
FPFE:  A mysterious charm, Fi! Fi!
FPFE:  Candy
FPFE:  I wore a beautiful kimono
Utena:  Get a grip! You've lost yourself!
Yep, what it says. This is about Kozue's yearning for her past when everything was still nice and she was happy. Utena's line is very fitting in this context. Those who keep living in their past often lose themselves on the way; of course, that's not what Utena meant when she said it. I just happened to like this interpretation.... ;


FPFE:  Children's Festival
FPFE:  Oh, my dream machine...
Kozue:  I'm going to kill Anthy!
FPFE:  Flowerstorm
FPFE:  To the faraway ancient me,
FPFE:  Ten, two, one, zero... Take off!
Kozue:  Disappear, all of you!
Kozue:  Except for Miki and me, all other things are ugly.
Kozue (and all the other Black Rose duelists) thought she could make her memories eternal through the duels and by killing the Rose Bride. Here she openly confesses how she finds everything else meaningless but herself and Miki. And the only way to make everyone disappear is by going back in time. That's when Kozue was the only thing Miki had in mind, and she was happy like that.

FPFE:  Time Machine
Utena:  Her sword... what power.
FPFE:  To the past, to the future, whoosh, zip, zoom!
Kozue:  This is Miki's brilliance.
FPFE:  Time Machine
Kozue:  It ends now!
FPFE:  To the time of all my dreams and wishes
I suppose Kozue would love to have a timemachine. She'd take her childhood happiness and make it so that it would never end. It wouldn't just be the future that she'll shape according to her wishes. Given a chance, she'd make her happiness eternal. That's what she thought Mikage offered him, but as we know, they were both wrong about eternity.

[---]
FPFE:  Hair tied back,
FPFE:  toting a box lunch,
FPFE:  A mysterious charm, Fi! Fi!
FPFE:  Amusement parks
FPFE:  Surprise! Surprise!
FPFE:  These are all my soul
FPFE:  Oh, my dream machine...
FPFE:  Dreamstorm
FPFE:  To the faraway ancient me,
FPFE:  Ten, two, one, zero... Take off!
This is a relatively easy duel song (interpretation wise), I guess I've already brought out the main point. If you want to get all the details, feel free to watch the duel. Or better yet, do that and add it to this thread!



Finally, the last one. This is the scene from the end of the episode.


Miki:  Take it easy and get some sleep.
Kozue:  Hey, would you make me a milkshake?
Miki:  Sure.

Miki giving Kozue a good-night kiss, how sweet! ^.^

While usually the spinning rose indicates someone's conflicts, in this case it's a bit different. I believe Kozue is quite happy that she has finally regained his brother's attention to some extention. The dialogue, however, gives us an impression that she's still yearning for her past (refer to Razara's post about milkshake). She doesn't even realise that she's still trapped in her memories, but at that moment it doesn't matter to her. What matters is that she is happy, even if it might not last forever.

In the end, I think it was Kozue herself who was restraining herself from evolving, from seeing the bigger picture. By clinging to Miki and her memory like that she wasn't only stopping him from doing what he wanted, but she was also keeping herself from seeing an alternative way of living. Those precious memories need to be let go.


You know, I can't really be a full-time analysis whore even if I wanted to. I don't usually have that much free time on my hands, but I love doing this every now and then.

edit:  Oh yeah. I've been making good use of the BRS screens. Thanks so much for taking those, Gio!

Last edited by Maarika (02-03-2007 06:38:39 AM)

lovely lovely


...but why don't their show Akio and anthy licking the cake off the candles before they put them in the candelabra though

Everytime Anthy disappears from her clothes, it's saying something important.  Anthy is not really there.  The walking, talking doll is not really Anthy.  It's an illusion.

So she disappears out of her clothes, which fall to the floor.  But there is a seed planted that could grow into a rose bush.  Which has both positive and negative connotations within the context of the series.

Everytime I see the bush begin to grow, I think of the tree of life.  It doesn't look like a bush at first (though God spoke to Moses through a burning bush).

Trees have huge symbolism.  There are the trees in the Garden of Eden, the world tree of Norse mythology, the Kabala tree.  Buddha sat under a tree when he achieved enlightenment.  It was fruit from the tree of knowledge that got mankind cast from the garden.  Many mythological systems have a world tree or tree of life that is the center, core, or actuality of the world.  There are the dryads of Greek myth, who were trees/lived in trees.  Trees bear fruit and flowers, spread into the air to reach for sunlight, burrow deep down into the darkness of the earth with their roots.  Trees know all the secrets of existance--the true nature of the world, ascension to heaven.  Understanding of the tree can grant immortality and apotheosis.

That Anthy-rose bush has puzzled me mightily. I think Rhyaniwyn's idea makes a lot of sense. I have been overly fixated on the more obvious sexual symbolism of that scene. Rose have thorns, Anthy is both sweet and dangerous, but she is also growing, perhaps unbeknownst to herself. It's interesting that they are pink roses though and not purple. Perhaps she is picking up some of Utena's personality or Utena is mistakingly projecting her rescue-fantasy ideals onto Anthy, not seeing Anthy's true colors. Or perhaps it supports the theory that they are the same person.
***
BTW notice the two white birds on the head boards of the beds of the Kaoru twins. Obviously they are the two young birds.