Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...

Those essays have been discussed here before, hence the general lack of interest in revisiting the subject. They are regarded by many of us as incorrect and based on obsolete cultural assumptions. Ikuhara Kunihiko, the director of Utena, has repeatedly and clearly stated that he intended Utena and Anthy as a lesbian relationship. He was prevented from being as explicit as he wished to be in the television series due to obstructionism by Saito Chiho, the project's manga artist. She too has confirmed that this was the case.

However, Ikuhara had a greater degree of control over the movie, and if you've seen it, you know the result. He even stated in materials for the recent remastered rerelease that he "tried to do in the movie what I couldn't do in the series" with regard to their romance. As should be obvious, this completely invalidates the notion that the movie was a "fannish" watering-down of the series. In fact, it is a realization of what was meant all along.

It's fine to interpret what you see on the screen in whatever way you please, but the lens-of-culture explanations those essays propose about the thought process of the show's creators do not apply, and end up coming off as nothing but an elaborate excuse to dismiss the homosexuality that was intended to be there. "Doseiai" is a long, long dead cultural idea, and in many other ways, these essays are behind the times when it comes to depictions of same-sex relationships. For instance, this bit:

Manga published in Anise (the most popular lesbian magazine in Japan) are about lesbians written by lesbians for lesbians, yuri is not. Yuri are titles that capitalize on overly fantasied and intentionally unrealistic depictions of (usually) sexual female relationships primarily marketed for male consumption. That is not to say gay men or lesbians cannot enjoy yaoi or yuri, or vice versa and any and everything in between - but they are in no way seen as genuine depictions of homosexuality in Japan by the Japanese public and as such should not be seen as insights or stories “about homosexuality” anywhere else.

This is incorrect in a number of ways. The primary Japanese demographic for yuri is, in fact, female. Yuri Hime, the flagship yuri manga periodical, is and has always been marketed toward females, and many yuri artists are both a) women, and b) lesbians or bisexuals themselves. There are many true-to-life stories of female/female romance within the genre that definitely provide "insight" into the lives of lesbians in Japan.

To clinch the matter, the lesbian magazine Anise, which the article describes as "the most popular lesbian magazine in Japan"...ran from 1996-2003. This article and its opinions about yuri are thoroughly outdated, as further proven by the incorrect and now-obsolete Western notion that yuri was "usually sexual" in nature. That is not and has never been its connotation in Japan.

Thus, I sincerely hope this phrase...

After I finished the series a few weeks ago, I felt very conflicted over Utena and Anthys relationship, and I feel this really puts things into perspective.

...doesn't mean "I didn't like the idea that their relationship may have been written with the intention of being a homosexual romance, but these essays have allowed me to dismiss that notion". Because that is how their relationship was intended.

Last edited by Aelanie (05-22-2014 08:17:18 AM)

imo, I see nothing wrong with people interpreting Utena and Anthy's relationship as non-romantic. It's heartwarming to imagine two people could care for each other so much without any romantic or sexual attraction involved, and I think that it being a very very strong friendship really doesn't defeat the show's idea at all. To think of it that way is just having an alternative perspective and I feel that in most cases it doesn't reflect fear and resentment of love between two women.
What Ikuhara said stands as Word Of God, but if he intended to transmit his own views directly to the audience, he would have made a more straightforward show.
If we consider it open to interpretation in all it's aspects (and the existence of this forum is proof that we do), then it really must mean ALL aspects, even this one.
I personally do consider their relationship to be romantic, but I don't think that with a show like SKU my interpretation of anything is any more correct than anybody else's.
And some people find it uncomfortable. Some people find straight romance uncomfortable. Such is life, acceptance is never good when forced, it's a thing that develops and grows through personal experience.

(I speak only of the anime here, where there's still some ambiguity)

justmytwocentspleasedontkillme

Aelanie wrote:

Snow wrote:

What Ikuhara said stands as Word Of God, but if he intended to transmit his own views directly to the audience, he would have made a more straightforward show.

As mentioned, in this particular aspect he would've made a more straightforward show, if he had been allowed to. But he wasn't.

justmytwocentspleasedontkillme

Nothing to worry about. I don't intend to repeat my mistakes from the last thread. To be completely clear, my problem is ONLY with the notion that those essays accurately describe the thought process that went into Utena and Anthy's relationship. They do not. This is a matter of known fact, not opinions. However, that has nothing to do with anybody deciding anything based on what the show actually presents, and I am not attempting to "thought police" anyone's interpretation of the work itself. Keeping the developmental background transparent is my only desire.

Hmm.  For the sake of argument, let's say I take Ikuni at his word: he wanted U/A to depict a lesbian relationship in the show, but that didn't wash.  He "wasn't able to accomplish" it.  Well, if you can't write them as overt lovers, then it seems to me you can do a couple different things instead.  You can write them as lovers but confine their sexual feelings for each other to subtext; I think this is what you believe happened.  Or you can decide not to write them as lovers, and instead use a different model of close female friendship to relate them, perhaps informed by old doseiai tropes, perhaps not.  Be-PaPas must have considered both alternatives.  Do you know which one they ended up going for?  Do you know that "Utena and Anthy are just close friends" is not what Ikuni and co. settled on after straight shoujo-ai was dismissed?  I don't know one way or the other, but you've probably read more interviews than I have.  It seems to me that's a point you'd want to address before you completely dismiss these essays as bearing on SKU's writing, and before you say that you have made the developmental background transparent.

On an administrative note:

Aelanie wrote:

Thus, I sincerely hope this phrase...

After I finished the series a few weeks ago, I felt very conflicted over Utena and Anthys relationship, and I feel this really puts things into perspective.

...doesn't mean "I didn't like the idea that their relationship may have been written with the intention of being a homosexual romance, but these essays have allowed me to dismiss that notion". Because that is how their relationship was intended.

This is the second consecutive thread on this subject in which you have gratuitously insinuated that a poster has an offensively heteronormative or homophobic viewpoint, with no evidence that they have that viewpoint except that they disagree with your interpretation of U/A's relationship.  This is patronizing and insulting.  I do not want to see it happen again.  Do not take this issue up with me here; PM me if you have a problem with what I said.

Last edited by satyreyes (05-22-2014 10:27:24 AM)

Thus, I sincerely hope this phrase...

After I finished the series a few weeks ago, I felt very conflicted over Utena and Anthys relationship, and I feel this really puts things into perspective.

...doesn't mean "I didn't like the idea that their relationship may have been written with the intention of being a homosexual romance, but these essays have allowed me to dismiss that notion". Because that is how their relationship was intended.

That is absolutely not what I meant... I DO interpret them as a romantic couple. I would never want to "dismiss" that notion. I simply didn't know what the information that was presented about Japanese history and found it an interesting foundation for Utena and Anthys relationship, but nice presumption.

I simply meant that I was conflicted because I don't know much about the history of lesbian relationships in Japan, and didn't want to assume anything that could be ignorant. Also, these may be outdated now but Utena aired in 1997...

dereban wrote:

That is absolutely not what I meant... I DO interpret them as a romantic couple. I would never want to "dismiss" that notion. I simply didn't know what the information that was presented about Japanese history and found it an interesting foundation for Utena and Anthys relationship, but nice presumption.

I simply meant that I was conflicted because I don't know much about the history of lesbian relationships in Japan, and didn't want to assume anything that could be ignorant. Also, these may be outdated now but Utena aired in 1997...

There, you see? I was actually completely wrong, and now I look more like an ass than ever. Which is as it should be. Again, I apologize for my aggression and, as you say, presumption.  I'd be glad if you could forgive me, understanding why I was suspicious of that rationale, which is all too common.

However, if that's how you feel, I am happy that I was able to tell you the truth about the show's development background. I hope you find it welcome news.

Last edited by Aelanie (05-24-2014 04:04:25 PM)