Maarika wrote:

Imaginary Bad Bug wrote:

My favorite off-the-wall visuals would have to be...

- the bug in the frame that changes forms in the Nemuro elevator

Has anyone figured out what it means? It seems to me that it's a caterpillar evolving into a butterfly, except the whole process goes the other way around which makes it bizarre.

I always took it to mean that the characters were regressing to a more selfish and, I guess, id-driven () state. Hence butterfly to chrysalis to leaf, no doubt with eggs on it. The mental state of the interviewee is going from controlled, to partially controlled, to unrestrained id and/or shadow self (I don't know enough Jung to be sure on that one). The theory goes that Mikage provides them with something they can focus it on instead of just having them unleash it at random.

....funny mental picture, that. I bet before he learned how to focus it, he at least had a close call with some girl or guy in an id-driven state trying to fuck his brains out.

Lotte wrote:

I can't for the life of me remember what episode it was, but I can remember the whole scene ratherly clearly.

The girls are all watching Touga and Saionji at Kendo, and everytime a cry of 'Go, Touga-sempai!' or 'Saionji-sempai, Saionji-sempai!' is heard, a kendo sword tilts forward. It goes on like this for a little while, before there's a sudden 'Shhhh!' from Utena and a broom's standing there. Throughout all this, the girls and Utena are never shown.

That would be episode 9, The Castle Said to Hold Eternity. That's right, I know my Saionji episodes.

Yasha wrote:

Maarika wrote:

Imaginary Bad Bug wrote:

My favorite off-the-wall visuals would have to be...

- the bug in the frame that changes forms in the Nemuro elevator

Has anyone figured out what it means? It seems to me that it's a caterpillar evolving into a butterfly, except the whole process goes the other way around which makes it bizarre.

I always took it to mean that the characters were regressing to a more selfish and, I guess, id-driven () state. Hence butterfly to chrysalis to leaf, no doubt with eggs on it. The mental state of the interviewee is going from controlled, to partially controlled, to unrestrained id and/or shadow self (I don't know enough Jung to be sure on that one). The theory goes that Mikage provides them with something they can focus it on instead of just having them unleash it at random.

I've always figured it was along those lines as well.  It just made sense as whoever was in the elevator was searching for the source of their motivation for dueling Utena, and the insect reflected the stage from which that desire stemmed.

hyacinth_black wrote:

I also love everything about the building where the Black Rose stuff was in...

That would be Nemuro Hall.

Last edited by Imaginary Bad Bug (10-26-2006 03:50:32 PM)

In the Akio arc I  like how hair moves when the 'rose brides' take the swords of the duelists, it flows so nice

http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/akioarcseq … nce107.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0497.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/temptation … ap0237.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/temptation … ap0355.jpg


ANY scene the shadow play girls appear, their comments are so twisted but so right most of times, I laugh my ass off when they appear before Saionji's third duel.

this scene ----> http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/juju/AnimeJuju77.jpg

Also in the movie i love when the rose petal rain happens, and the final scene of Touga and Utena together.

Maarika wrote:

Imaginary Bad Bug wrote:

My favorite off-the-wall visuals would have to be...

- the bug in the frame that changes forms in the Nemuro elevator

Has anyone figured out what it means? It seems to me that it's a caterpillar evolving into a butterfly, except the whole process goes the other way around which makes it bizarre.

I thought it might be a pictoral symbol of the mental process that Mikage is asking each person to go through. The demand for "deeper" usually means "go back", "what is the first cause?". Mikage is trying to draw out the emotional evolution of each victim.

I always found the train scene in the Seitokai hall disturbing. The one where Miki and Juri are talking and there's a train crossing shown behind them with the lights flashing and the gate coming down. Then when Nanami starts speaking, an invisible train goes by and Juri says "I'm sorry, I couldn't hear what you said."

I lived in Japan for 3 years, and maybe that's why. Train crossings always freak me out a bit - a lot of people commit suicide there. It's a bit unnerving when you're riding the JR and it suddenly stops, and the guy over the loudspeakers says so sorry for the delay, there was an accident on the tracks (meaning, someone jumped onto the train tracks to commit suicide and got run over and now they have to clean it up).

Last edited by Ger (10-27-2006 09:15:37 AM)

Yeah, trains have a creepy sort of mysticsm to me that I love - the surrealness of getting on and off with all these people you don't know. I think of the scene in Sen to Chihiro with Chihiro and Kaonashi and the two animals on the ghost train as night is falling. It's one of my favorite scenes in any movie I've watched because I remember having felt that way many times riding the train.

Clarice wrote:

Which all reminds me -- I love the crazy imagery surrounding the student council meetings. My favourite one, however, has to be Saionji and Touga alone up there riding the bike around the balcony...it was somehow so sweet, making me think of the hazy halcyon days of my own childhood, but then you could see it slipping away from them. Yeah. That was a neat little scene.

Any Saionji and Touga scene in the Akio arc makes me happy.

Utena makes me question whether the visuals I find striking are strange and unusual or cliche, hahah.

1)  How Juri never actually "loses" a duel in the traditional way, it's always a slap in the face for her because it challenges her faithlessness

2) Dios falling from that giant sphere, I thought it was powerful because his image was something absolute that Utena heavily depended on.

3) The silhouette of Akio and Kanae kissing, it struck me because Kanae appears limp, an expression of her submissiveness, and Utena's first glimpse of Akio Ohtori is that of a sexual figure. She's so naive to those kind of "affectionate" interactions that it's almost like Akio has -already- violated her a little (I think she blushes as well?) because he's broken new territory as far as Utena's mind is concerned -plus- he's sending her two messages already that are going to give her moral conflict: 1) I'm attractive, capable, and this could be you I'm kissing...but 2) The way I'm kissing this girl, four years your senior, indicates to you that we're involved and that you shouldn't be thinking of me sexually. He really likes messing with her head (understatement of the year)

4) Kozue by the pool picking up water and letting it slip through her fingers, suggestion both her ability to be with whomever she chooses and drop them just as easily as well as her struggle to maintain her brother's attention but watching it invairably slip away, regardless of her attempts.

5) All of Ep. 27...all of it. Everytime Nanami breaks down (Oh my Gahhhd!!!!) she's placed in a different theoretical location with animals, caged with them, eating with them, becoming increasingly closer to the status of an animal. The way the people around her tease her gives us a look into how Nanami may view the people around her and how she feels they treat her, how she feels victimized by them. When Touga and Nanami are eating, how we first see a balloon floating away (Nanami's ignorance, "I like girls too!") and then a bird, and then the red/black flock of birds racing across when Touga says it's awful for a girl to lay eggs, kind of a visual expression of Nanami's mental state.

6) Episodes 22/23 Ohhhh dear A) Nemuro Memorial Hall itself is a beutiful image B) Nemuro's "rose-tinted" glasses that Tokiko smacks off, coincidence? C) "I feel as though this is the first time I've seen anybody cry." D) Nemuro's unremarkable expression upon seeing Akio with Tokiko, something about his non-reaction breaks my heart E) Seeing the rose signet in the teacup with the lipstick marks on top of the coffin...symbol upon symbol upon symbol! F) The music paired with Mikage's head slowly turning towards Utena as she puts two and two together while looking at the pictures on the wall, makes me shudder, and then his POV with her as Tokiko. F) Utena interrupting Mikage with that bitch-slap, it was so curt and perfectly timed. That scene plays out so brilliantly between them, how their psyche's are battling it out. G) Mikage's heaving in the elevator as the light flickers on/ the "unexpected" tear, something he doesn't even know what to do with. H) How we never see the end of Mikage's duel, it ends with a quiet phonecall with, of course, Akio. Where is Mikage calling from? In what state is he in? My mind wanders there. Plus two lines between the duel and the phone call that stuck with me: "I took everything upon myself!" Mikage to Tokiko -- "It's time to graduate, Professor." Akio to "Mikage" on the phone. Ironic because its -students- who graduate, not teachers and etc. Also, when Tokiko is walking through the school and Mikage walks straight past her, never acknowledging her. I saw that short scene executed amazingly in a music vid. Watching that scene in that video made me fall in love with Mikage and now his arc is my favorite!

7) The big window behind Anthy/Utena's bed changes every night, I wish I knew anything about planets and space phenomenon so I could comment on the possible meanings. Sometimes there are shooting stars, gigantic views of Saturn and its rings, etc.

8) Ruka...Ruka Ruka Ruka. "Our time together is brief." "I know." (But she doesn't) The chairs, the change between the sky from blue to orange to blue etc. Shiori collapsing after Ruka tears away from her. Ruka's revealing expressions when Juri asks him to take her back (the carefully placed frowns), the way the Akio car appears behind the fountain with Ruka/Shiori, the way the rain falls on Juri after she loses, her gasping, her stumbling, the way her sword strikes the ground once (in the actual episode it makes no sound, but in Ep. 33 it makes a piercing sound that hit me), the windshield wipers coming on, Ruka and Juri watching the rain, the way Shiori's car crashes and she's thrown partially through the windshield. Finally, at the end of Ep. 28, Ruka walks away without elaborating upon his intentions to Juri, who calls out, "Ruka....Ruka!!!" In the Dub she calls out, but in the Japanese the second Ruka!! she yells is echoed into the fade-out and it was very powerful.

9) All of The Barefoot Girl. I love the candles going out, Anthy's eyes glowing behind the Akio car (freaks me out every time), and -especially- the part where Utena makes the basket and as she's swinging back on the hoop she sees a silhouette of Akio in the window of the building ahead. The sound made is a mix of her gasping, and something metallic and shrill, but in a way also like a car braking hard, then she whispers "A...kio." That bit wowed me, it expressed the feeling she was experiencing perfectly.

10) Nanami slapping Keiko in front of Touga and being slapped in return - to the floor, that whole scene really made me feel for Nanami. I know Keiko had every right, but whatever, Touga's all Nanami has, and now she's facing complete emptiness and the fact that she's wasted thirteen years -not- developing her own individuality and character. That's a hard blow.

11) Any of Akio's interactions with Utena, especially after she's had sex with him and she goes into her recollections of her childhood. She becomes a silhouette and lightning cracks behind them in the planetarium and we see the Touga/Saionji childhood bit play through in the background. I thought it was very theatrical and well done, like her memories being 'projected' behind her.

12) The flash of Akio on the carousel that Dios is riding on, Akio's attack on Utena, "You'd prefer reaching castles in the sky over reaching the top of this tower (something the other girls are perfectly contented with, even though Utena is, arguably, pursuing the same thing; a man)." The light shed on Anthy as the blinds of the planetarium rises, then shedding light upon the picture of Akio and Anthy, the way Utena lifts herself up after Dios tries to peacefully subdue her. I like how she's all bleached out, you can see her perspiring, and the shadows of the swords are racing over her. Finally, I love how Akio is calmly explaining why his actions are justifiable, something that an earlier Utena might be led to believe blindly like a sheep, but now she responds with a furious, "SHUT UP!!" Finally, she's seen the truth, and she's sick of the bullshit. I feel like that could've stood alone as Utena's redeeming moment. Plus any feminist view will take this to indicate that Utena has conquered her need for a man.

Those weren't all visual, but they were the subtle and not-so-subtle things that really struck me as powerful and moving. Kind of long, but come on...it's Utena, it's impossible to keep it brief.

Hoorah for me digging waaay back in here to find threads! This one hasn't been posted on in two months.

My god.... There are so many! It's hard to think.

While I know the Nemuro elevator bug was mentioned before, I'm bringing it up again. It struck me as odd at first too, how the butterfly seems to evolve backwards. But soon after, I think I understood. I saw it as the butterfly, or the finished product, was sort of like the Black Rose Duellists before they came to Mikage. Butterflies are considered a beautiful creature rather than an insect, as the caterpillar might be seen. The students had perfected their outward look, changing themselves into something more pleasing for others, more beautiful. But deep down, they are still larva, vile and putrid insects. Mikage picks and picks at their wounds until they cease to be the polished, refined students and become what they are inside--caterpillars, or more over, human. Weak, ignorant, selfish...human. The process for them works backwards, breaking them down after so many years of building them up. To show evolution working in reverse is a glorious metaphor for this.

I'm a big fan of Utena's "food, sex, and eternity" speech. I watch that scene again and again, and it moves me more each time. I think it goes without explanation, but I have nothing else to do, so here I go. "Just as foods would spoil if left out, so would love if not tended to properly." This was my first thought, but as I rewatched it 60-70+ times, I started to view it differently. Utena's memories of Dios, her ideals to become a prince...this was what could not last an eternity. Everyone has to grow up sometime, and leave their dreams of being a firefighter or an astronaut behind them. The fact that she had given into temptation and slept with Akio is a clear symbol of her letting go of the idea of becoming a prince. After all, it isn't strange for idolization to become love, or lust. Her struggle to remember what is left for her to eat is a metaphor for what is left for her to believe in. She's upset, but unable to think of her ideals as easily anymore. She forgot her meeting of Anthy when she was young, but felt the passion and nobility, which drove her. But with Akios careful seduction, she began to forget even that. Once memory and emotion are gone, what is left to drive her on? Why keep fighting a losing battle? By her tears though, you understand. She knows in her mind what it meant for her to be a prince, but neither her body nor her heart can see it anymore.
"...What is eternity?"
What can she believe in that will last forever? How can she remain true to her prince and Anthy when all else seems to fail her? Is there no ideal that isn't childish? Nobility is naive. Purity is peurile.
"Maybe...a girl...really can't become a prince..."
Perhaps her ideals, the food, did spoil. Her "love" for Akio, the mold and bacteria, could easily consume it, turn it into something non-stomach safe, or difficult to take in. So does this make her feelings[however you interpret them] for Anthy a salt of some sort? Just a seasoning to hide foul taste? Memory was able to bring Utena back, but was it not Anthy that drove her forward? This last piece is where I start to reach for the scissors so I can cut the edge that doesn't fit and try to force it into the puzzle. In metaphorical terms, you could only mask the rot. But in Utena terms, the rot vanishes....

....doesn't it?

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

Rosemary Bats wrote:

I love during the other black rose duels, the way the desks clash together into 4 neat groups during the end, and the sound they make...and how the duelists fall, sleeping, to fit perfectly into one of the dead body outlines.

I always wondered if that was Prof. Nemuro's outline.

My favorite visuals would probaby be the second Apocalypse Ascent. Everything in that is gorgeous, especially the rose bush growing through Anthy's gown -soo eerie, and beautiful. It's so natural for her to be nakie in front of everyone, don't you think?

I also just love how theatrical everything is. The Akio Car Leap, the photo sessions, the architecture, it's all so overdone that it's absolutly perfect. Like Hannibal said, too many flowers are too many; Way too many flowers is just right.

Also, Saionji and Touga re-enacting the Akio car with the motorcycle cracks me up every time.

There is one scene that I will always love to pick at. Episode 25...or somewhere around there. I'm going to say 25. ANYWAY, when the seitokai are meeting. Nanami is still the acting president, and Saionji is telling them how he doesn't want to duel anymore and the whatnot. The baseball players I loved this. Every little action had a metaphor right behind it. I can sit there and watch that scene over and over, just calling out randomly why something is happening. To explain that, I'd need to put the actual script...but seeing as we've done that in other threads, I don't see why I can't here

Juri: Where had you been until you returned to school, Saionji?
Saionji: That is of no concern.
Saionji:  At any rate, I'm not going to duel anymore.
((Lead lead lead...))

Nanami: How's that?

Saionji:  Because what the letters say cannot be trusted.

((Strike!))
Juri:  Having been tricked by the counterfeit letter seems to have taught you a lesson...
Miki: The contents of the letter have already been verified.

((All right! All right!))
Miki: Certainly, when I passed through the Rose Gate,
((Strike!))
Miki:  ...at the center of the caracole to the Duel Arena,
((Strike!))
Miki:  ...a gondola appeared.
((Strike! Batter out!))

Nanami:  So, what about this gondola?
Miki:  I understand that it will advance us to a new stage.
Saionji:  It doesn't matter to me whether the text of the letter is true or false.
Saionji:  I have no recollection of becoming a subordinate of the Ends of the World.
((Out! Out! Game's over! ))

Saionji:  I flatly refuse to fight by someone's order.
Nanami:  Kyouichi!
Saionji:  Don't try to stop me.

Nanami:  Honestly. I'd refuse that, too.
Miki: Well, even so...
Juri:  Who on earth is this Ends of the World?
--

This scene can be broken down action by action.
-Saionji is throwing at them the idea of giving up duelling; an idea they all follow soon after. The pitcher is behind him.
-Nanami questions his logic, opening the doorway for all members to take their swing at him. The bats are behind her.
-Saionji claims that the letters cannot be trusted, and is easily able to throw Nanami off guard. The catcher is behind him.
-Juri disregards the comment and fires the others back up to try and convince Saionji otherwise, which only pushes him further. The plate is swept behind her.
-Miki informs them that the letter is valid and authentic, and is able to corner Saionji again. The catcher moves behind him.
-Miki goes on to tell of the new stage in the duels, and surprises them with all the changes, perhaps implying to Saionji that this time, things will turn out differently. Three strikes occur infront of him.
-Saionji sticks by his choice, claiming that he would not act as a puppet. The game is over.
-The others are left wondering about the identity of End of the World. Confettii is falling, symbolic perhaps that all is not over yet.

The baseball game analysis is so brilliant! I never thought of that! Thanks for explaining it.

Also, does anyone know the meaning of poppies and cactuses in episode 35? I tried looking it up but I couldn't come up with anything relevant.

One simple point of inconsistancy I have noticed is whenever they look up at the castle from the duelling arena, the castle looks perfectly still but when they show a side view of both the castle and the arena, the castle is rotating at about the same rate as a 33rpm record... is it just a random pointless thing (which is unlikely considering the nature of this show) or is there a special meaning behind the still from one angle and rotating from another?