As we discussed in the car thread, it seems that the drives represent a seduction of the mind; only in Shiori and Ruka's case do I believe any sex play occurred.  Akio, the series "adult" figure, presents to the duelists (who all seemed to be losing conviction to duel) the opportunity for "adult power" like his, the power to achieve their ends through the comparable strength they'll apparently gain if they win their next duel.  A push on his part to either strengthen the weakened duelists into noble souls for his cause, or to further hone Utena's sword for the same end.

As for what they saw, I'm inclined to believe that they were presented with a very attainable ideal; however, his saying he is showing them "the end of the world" makes me question if the vision is something positive.  The "end" used, hate, means limit (rather than owari's finality), so it raises the question of what, exactly, this limit is.  Going along with the idea of "adult power," it could very well be the limit of what their unempowered adolescence could achieve, a negative reinforcement to duel for the chance to gain the power to meet the ends on their own terms.  For example, the limit of Saionji's adolescence could be an amicable but still embittered friendship with Touga; Juri's could be a comfortable friendship with Shiori with her own feelings still dormant, what have you.  Whatever it was, it was something that impacted the duelists' conviction enough to cause them to pick up their swords once more.  I don't think just sleeping with Akio would result in that outcome.

Jellineck wrote:

I had a friend that suggested he pretty much had sex with all of them. I just can't really see him doing Nanami, though.

The other way round, I don't really think Juri would ever let Akio lay a finger on herself...

Now this is an interesting discussion. Good call, NRG!

Here's my take. All of the duelists are first enticed into the car by Touga. He tells them "If your heart has truly not given up, you can hear it, the sound racing through the End of the World." The important thing to note here is, "given up on what?" I have always suspected that the flaw in the Seitokai, the reason they weren't revolutionary, was that they all wanted the wrong thing. Saionji wanted Touga's friendship on his own terms, disregarding what Touga was really like or may have wanted. Miki wanted a girl to be a mirror to admire himself in, his "shining thing". Juri wanted to love Shiori from afar, to love the idea of Shiori, and not Shiori herself. Nanami wanted to freeze Touga in time and maintain him as the perfect older brother who would love only her. Touga, obviously, just wanted to control and manipulate everyone.

All of these longings betray the fundamental immaturity of the Seitokai, and an inability to take the risks needed to form adult relationships. What Akio shows them, I suspect, is their dreams realized, a sort of living coffin, as he calls it in the movie. This is, however, the End of the World, because what he shows them is something that can never grow, never even truly live. And here Akio betrays himself as well. He lives at the End of the World, he is the End of the World. A place from which no one can even dream of anything new for their lives, but where he is trapped into his role, unchanging, unliving.

And he is most certainly the end of the world in the sense of limits. 

Akio's ends are what I tend to refer to as being "shallow and materialistic."  According to him, the "highest" point in the world is the chairman's residence--a place from which he can look down upon others, manipulate them, and be admired as the powerful, intelligent, and attractive man he is.  So what would be his "limit" or "end" to the world?

Akio rejects all "spiritual" ideals, all dreams and desires that do not have a finite, physical form.  He scoffs at the idea of "seeking eternity" and in the third arc the end he shows to the duellists probably cuts through the semi-mystical language and penetrates the selfish root of their longings.

They are drawn in with their dreams, "if you haven't given up".  Then I think Akio shows them a painful "truth", a scenario drawn within his worldview in which the duellists see themselves in a position of power.  I don't think these scenes are anything like, for example, showing Utena herself in a fairytale as a Prince.  They're less uplifting.  I think there's a word I want to use, but I can't think of it. 

And being told by an authority "this is the world as it truly is, this is the pinnacle of what you can achieve" affects the duellists.  It focuses them.  It also makes them smug for a time.  Look at Touga, who gets less smug in the third arc--I think being close to Akio for so long, he eventually starts to see Akio's "reality" as something less than wonderful.

This reminds me of the first recap episode in which Akio says, 'The young always wish to destroy the world.'  In the third arc, the duellists don't want to destroy (or regress) the world anymore, they are at least momentarily seduced by the idea of living within Akio's world as a player with power.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (08-25-2007 09:47:58 AM)

I guess, given Akio's character, it's easy to assume that some kind of sexual encounter happens, but while it's reasonable given how his character is portrayed, it doesn't connect logically with what he says in any way that I can think of.

The elevator speech leads me to believe that the "world's shell" is a concept related to "end of the world," and smashing it is a means of breaking through that boundary (which leads me to think of the movie). So, perhaps Akio did show them the limits (and at the same time, the height) of their potential while still maintaining that there is a boundary that cannot be smashed-- this is all they can ever be.

Archambeau wrote:

As for what they saw, I'm inclined to believe that they were presented with a very attainable ideal... Whatever it was, it was something that impacted the duelists' conviction enough to cause them to pick up their swords once more.  I don't think just sleeping with Akio would result in that outcome.

I picture it as one of those cheesy motivational seminars, in which a charismatic well-dressed man tells a bunch of suckers that they can achieve anything they put their minds to, if they just buy the wonderful book/membership/religion he is offering them. Kinda like the organisation Rose joins in Six Feet Under.

But when you think about it, the things that the Duelists want have absolutely no regard for anyone else.

I know that statement is obvious as hell, but it was midnight and I was barely awake.

I've read this entire thread twice now, and I get the nagging feeling that something's missing from it. I have no bloody clue what it is, though, and I was still thinking about it when I was trying to sleep.

Aside from that, I totally agree with what you ALL said.

I never noticed that the duels stopped being about Anthy after the Black Rose Arc. Retrospectively, though, I should have paid more attention to Saionji's last duel, especially his change in perspective after the car ride. I need to rewatch it, but it's the huuuuuuge dynamic shift that provides the best clue. Saionji and Miki were very "Anthy, Anthy, Anthy", more than Juri and Touga.

Maybe what Saionji (and possibly Miki) saw was what Mocha said...

What I wonder is if they were shown the limitations of Anthy's abilities. Sort of a "you thought this is what she could do, but this is what I can do, so you should do what I say, and go fight Utena."

Last edited by Raven Nightshade (08-26-2007 07:35:31 PM)

I always wondered ... Dios/Akio shows Utena Anthy and Anthy's suffering.  This inspires her to become a Prince.  Then he shows her the projector, expecting it to break her.  Is it possible he shows the other duellists the similar things?  Utena sees Anthy suffering, perhaps the others see her as the Witch.

I can't help but think of the Temptations of Christ.  Jesus fasts in the desert and Satan tempts him to make bread from stones to relieve his hunger.  Jesus is, according to an analysis I found, experiencing the pain, hunger, and suffering of mankind during this temptation.  The idea being it would be tempting for someone with miraculous powers to use them for his own material benefit.  Or, by extension, humanity's material benefit.  Then he is tempted to worship the Devil in exchange for secular power over 'all the kingdoms of the world.'  Finally, he is tempted to escape from a high mountaintop by jumping and depending upon Angels to save him (to attempt to take advantage of God's grace, one supposes).

I feel that there are parallels here, though I haven't gotten it worked out completely in my own mind yet.  The idea that the owner of Anthy will acquire miraculous power--which all of the duellists would use for their own benefit, aside from Utena--reminds me of the bread.  Utena doesn't care about the power, never seems to think about using it to free Anthy.  (Even, arguably, after Dios's speech to her.)

I feel certain the car rides, for the other duellists, are temptations along the lines of "join forces with me, and all the kingdoms of the world can be yours."

The arena itself could be akin to the high mountain.  The fact that Anthy is not saved from falling...  It's not exact, but there are interesting similarities.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Finally, he is tempted to escape from a high mountaintop by jumping and depending upon Angels to save him (to attempt to take advantage of God's grace, one supposes).

In my opinion, the third temptation could receive the name of "fame": to demonstrate God's grace to the world, and so be recognised. Therefore, we have: material benefits, secular power, and fame.

The arena itself could be akin to the high mountain.  The fact that Anthy is not saved from falling...  It's not exact, but there are interesting similarities.

Indeed. I love the idea, if only fame could be easily related to the duellists' temptations! Right now I don't know how to make this third parallel work.

It's a great analogy though not an exact one. Satan's temptations progress from the material to the more "spiritual" but with Akio it's the reverse.

I wonder if there is a reference to the Bhagavad-Gita where Krishna shows Arjuna two visions --  the glorious beauty of the world and the horror. Trouble is I have never read it in entirety, just in summary so I cannot comment more. Anyway the New Testament analogy seems to work better AFAIK. Like Jesus, Utena casts away "Kingship"; and she achieves the higher goals of the other duelists (Saoinji's ideal of friendship for example).

Last edited by brian (08-28-2007 11:12:11 AM)

Thanks. I'll take that as my cue to link to this thread.
http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=132
Click the last two links in my initial posting.

It's hard to be certain if this is the best thread to post this in but here goes.

In the final round of duels Utena wins with little trouble at all. Only Saionji gives her a good scare because his vision momentarily eclipses hers and causes her sword to vanish. Akio is taking notes and sure enough when Akio duels her he also shows her a vision of the World, probably using the actual projector with which he had snookered Saionji back in the first arc.

Akio no doubt noticed that Utena and Anthy were working together more than ever so he re-doubled his efforts to get between them.

She beats Touga easily but shows a marked tendency to get into conversations with her opponent and it's possible that Akio is noting that also.

The ironic thing is that everyone who is shown a vision of The End of World gains a momentary advantage over Utena but no lasting victory -- and that goes for Akio.

Last edited by brian (09-13-2007 07:30:17 PM)