Welcome back, Mooring! 

Rotten Mooring wrote:

Cite canon, cite the manga that I have not read, cite nothing but that one dream you had after over doing it on the bacon flavored squeezy-cheese right before bed.

One of these can be dispensed with pretty quickly.  Manga!Juri is straight and has a crush on Touga; the character of Shiori does not exist, to the best of my recollection.  (My recollection, however, is not to be trusted.  I only read the manga once and never again -- except for the prologue, which is excellent and which I read repeatedly.)

Shiori once told Juri to "believe in miracles" and these words had a deep impact on Juri but how much thought do you think Shiori put into that phrase? Do you think she was masterminding something designed to be agonized over later? Or was she just improvising?

I think she was improvising, but not in the duplicitous way she "improvises" with Ruka.  At some point Shiori asked Juri if there was anyone she liked.  Juri said there was, but she didn't think the other person thought of her that way at all.  Shiori didn't really know what to say, in the same way that no one really knows what to say, so she said "believe in miracles and they will know your feelings."  I don't think Shiori intended to put a lot of weight on the idea of miracles, she was just trying to be supportive, but that's where Juri heard the emphasis: it would take a miracle for Shiori to return Juri's emotions.  And that's how Juri's miracle fetish started. 

(As an aside, it is interesting and entirely in character for Shiori to suggest that Juri should believe in miracles instead of, for example, asking the other person if they wanted to go out.  From what we see with Ruka and the BHB, Shiori's approach to relationships is extremely passive except when it's desperate, so she's giving Juri the advice that she herself would follow.)

Shiori tells us that Juri "was always that wonderful" and that at one point that she believed that Juri was her friend out of sympathy. (Like a skinny girl keeping fat friends, I imagine.) Am I the only one that winds up picturing Juri "helping" Shiori with something she wasn't good at and Shiori feeling condescended to rather than assisted? I'm givent o think communication between these two has always been poor.

I think Shiori probably felt both ways at once.  I know we've had this conversation before somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find the thread; my analysis catalog has gotten very far out of date.   The gist was that Shiori simultaneously puts Juri on a pedestal and is disgusted at Juri for putting Shiori on the same level as herself.  Yes, like the skinny girl, except that the skinny girl is also better than you at everything, to the point where it makes you feel disgusting, and then you find out she has a crush on you.

Whatever happened to scary!Juri ? Before Juri vs. Utena Round 1, Juri manipulates the school principal into an uncomfortable position because her that-minute whim to speak with Utena wasn't granted and Utena reveals some of the hearsay going about in the lower grades about no one wanting to see Juri's "true face" (I may be paraphrasing that one). During Ruka's resurfacing, one of the other students actually calls Juri "scary" when giggling and gossiping to her friends (much in the context of, "Oh Shiori, you were all alone in that room with Juri? How scary!") Is scary!Juri just lip service paid by the easily intimidated masses or is there something to that?

Juri seems scary to me.  I vote her Most Likely To Personally Commit Murder of the mortal cast, with only Kozue giving her serious competition.  She is uncannily smart about people in Student Council meetings. She weaponizes that psychology in both the scenario with the counselor and in the statue garden with Utena, and goes as far as physical violence with Utena.  She has anger issues -- hidden behind a pretty thin veil of self-discipline -- and she has the brains and brawn to hurt people badly with that anger, or because it's to her strategic advantage.  We know that the Student Council has a reputation for disappearing people they don't like, and Juri is on the Student Council.  (Giving Utena a sword to fight Touga with is also really scary, from a certain point of view; it's tantamount to finding a schlub who's pissed at the Don and giving em a pistol.  In fact, it's scarier, since Juri was the one who armed Touga with the knowledge of Utena's lost prince in the first place.  Juri is subtle, and she doesn't mind if people get hurt.)

With that said, it's possible that some students fear Juri for more superficial reasons -- because she's intimidatingly beautiful or talented ("Tsugi!"), because she doesn't associate or talk with the other girls, or because whenever they see her she's storming from one place to another like an impatient and volatile bull.  We don't often see her in the light mood that sometimes comes over her when she hangs out with Miki and, later, Utena.  And while this doesn't even approach canon, I have little trouble imagining that bad things have happened to a couple boys who dared to hit on her a little too aggressively.

Shiori is self centered, childish and probably willfully ignorant about how the world works, but she's not that hard to figure out. I've got bigger problems trying to figure out how Juri's personality fits together when she isn't pining.

It's really easy for a rational person to figure out how to behave towards Shiori: stay the hell away from her.  But Juri isn't rational about Shiori.  I don't think she does consistently try to make Shiori happy, as you say.  I think she's torn among her superego telling her to GTFO, her id telling her to either fuck or kill her, and her conscience telling her to treat her with humanity.  Juri is a confusing and confused mess when it comes to Shiori.  So when opportunities come to be kind to Shiori, Juri tends to fuck them up.  Maybe her superego convinces her conscience that this is a good time for tough love.  Maybe she's so terrified of her id that she can't afford to listen to her conscience.  I don't know.  But I think asking her to behave rationally or even consistently towards Shiori is a little harsh under the circumstances.

My few cents! 

satyreyes wrote:

One of these can be dispensed with pretty quickly.  Manga!Juri is straight and has a crush on Touga; the character of Shiori does not exist, to the best of my recollection.  (My recollection, however, is not to be trusted.  I only read the manga once and never again -- except for the prologue, which is excellent and which I read repeatedly.)

Oh! Well then, there's that.
Why tell people I haven't read the manga when I can just out myself with every alternate step?

I think she was improvising, but not in the duplicitous way she "improvises" with Ruka.  At some point Shiori asked Juri if there was anyone she liked.  Juri said there was, but she didn't think the other person thought of her that way at all.  Shiori didn't really know what to say, in the same way that no one really knows what to say, so she said "believe in miracles and they will know your feelings."  I don't think Shiori intended to put a lot of weight on the idea of miracles, she was just trying to be supportive, but that's where Juri heard the emphasis: it would take a miracle for Shiori to return Juri's emotions.  And that's how Juri's miracle fetish started. 

And I pretty much pictured that going the exact same way. Is it just a foregone conclusion or was there subliminal messaging implanting that scene in all viewers.

Juri is subtle, and she doesn't mind if people get hurt.

There we go~ I suppose I'm just curious to see where that part of her character lands her among friends. Short Answer: She doesn't really have close friends, does she? Not of the secret sharing variety anyway.

With that said, it's possible that some students fear Juri for more superficial reasons -- because she's intimidatingly beautiful or talented ("Tsugi!"), because she doesn't associate or talk with the other girls, or because whenever they see her she's storming from one place to another like an impatient and volatile bull.  We don't often see her in the light mood that sometimes comes over her when she hangs out with Miki and, later, Utena.  And while this doesn't even approach canon, I have little trouble imagining that bad things have happened to a couple boys who dared to hit on her a little too aggressively.

No doubt about the general public.

Hypothetical: Do you think she would have disappeared people who bugged her? Less than hitting on her with fervor, do you think she would have gotten rid of irritating persons? Or better, what do you think would make for the sort of person she'd want ousted?

Shiori is self centered, childish and probably willfully ignorant about how the world works, but she's not that hard to figure out. I've got bigger problems trying to figure out how Juri's personality fits together when she isn't pining.

It's really easy for a rational person to figure out how to behave towards Shiori: stay the hell away from her.  But Juri isn't rational about Shiori.  I don't think she does consistently try to make Shiori happy, as you say.  I think she's torn among her superego telling her to GTFO, her id telling her to either fuck or kill her, and her conscience telling her to treat her with humanity.  Juri is a confusing and confused mess when it comes to Shiori.  So when opportunities come to be kind to Shiori, Juri tends to fuck them up.  Maybe her superego convinces her conscience that this is a good time for tough love.  Maybe she's so terrified of her id that she can't afford to listen to her conscience.  I don't know.  But I think asking her to behave rationally or even consistently towards Shiori is a little harsh under the circumstances.

And yeah, this is just me needing to get the sense kicked back into me. OMG, other people think differently than I do? How do that work?
I'd go back and purge the evidence but it's good to have reminders not to be a ponce.

My few cents! 

Very, very much appreciated~

Rotten Mooring wrote:

I'd go back and purge the evidence but it's good to have reminders not to be a ponce.

Don't be silly!  Juri's behavior towards Shiori is ridiculously inconsistent and does deserve explanation.  I feel like I only got a piece of it, and possibly someone will come along and make a broader point!  Glad you found some of what I had to say helpful

Gorgeousshutin, I agree with a lot of what you said, too.  A few points where I would differ...

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Juri is in lust with Shiori - not with her seemingly plain physicality, but rather, her coy, apparently delicate vulnerability that, as Ikuhara had said, is seeping with sexual undertones; the "I polish your sword every day waiting for your return" line can give any guy the jitters, as long as that that girl is not fat or blatantly ugly, which Shiori is not.  Notice how, plain as she looked as a young teen, she actually managed to get a boy who was originally interested in Juri into becoming "hers", if only just for a short while?  Shiori is seemingly plain yet undeniably alluring.

I think that between the BHB and her come-ons towards Ruka, it's safe to say that Shiori has figured out a thing or two about attracting male attention.  And I agree that her show of innocence and vulnerability is a part of that.  But I dissent on three points, in increasing order of importance.

- I think it would be a mistake to conclude that Shiori is plain-looking.  We can safely guess that Shiori believes she looks plain by comparison with Juri, and her looks are evidently not as striking as Juri's since other characters don't comment on them, but that's a far cry from saying she's plain.

- It is not an exclusively masculine trait to be "drawn to protect the vulnerable."  SKU of all shows should illustrate that for you.  Utena, Juri, Anthy, Nanami, and even Kozue all go out of their way to protect people they see as vulnerable, often but not always because of some romantic or pararomantic feelings.  Juri does not have to have "near-masculine inclinations in her character" to feel a desire to protect Shiori, or for that desire to inform her attraction to Shiori.  And, yes, to Utena as well.

- Most importantly, I think you're missing the biggest reason Juri is attracted to Shiori, a reason that resonates deeply with the show's themes.  It's actually something Mooring touched on accidentally in the OP.  Juri and Shiori have known each other forever.  There was a time before the BHB when they were good friends, maybe best friends, before drama made everything complicated.  Juri wants Shiori for the same reason that Saionji wants Touga and that Wakaba wants Saionji and that Tatsuya wants Wakaba and that Miki wants Anthy and that Kozue wants Miki and that Nanami wants Touga and that Tsuwabuki wants Nanami and that Anthy wants Akio: each reminds each of a time in their lives when they were happy, or imagine they were happy.  The power of miracles is the same as the power of eternal friendship or the power of the shining thing: it is the power to return to childhood instead of growing up.  Juri would want Shiori whether or not Shiori was physically attractive or emotionally vulnerable or innocent, because Shiori is the girl she remembers having slumber parties with and sharing secrets with and doing all kinds of other things that we'd see if Ikuni graced us with a few flashbacks.  That is, for Juri, her attraction grew out of a deep friendship -- one she has lost and wants to return to.

I think Shiori's fixation on Juri is attributable to the same cause.  I don't think Shiori is a closet case, though she could be.  She seems to like boys, but she might be bi, or she might not know what she is yet.  But she doesn't have to be a closet case for her behavior towards Juri to make sense.  I would explain her face-flushed excitement in terms of her exhilarating realization that she actually has power over the unassailable Juri, and has for a long time!

Rotten Mooring wrote:

At some point Shiori asked Juri if there was anyone she liked.  Juri said there was, but she didn't think the other person thought of her that way at all.  Shiori didn't really know what to say, in the same way that no one really knows what to say, so she said "believe in miracles and they will know your feelings."

And I pretty much pictured that going the exact same way. Is it just a foregone conclusion or was there subliminal messaging implanting that scene in all viewers.

Both?    Just about all close friends who hit puberty at about the same time have that talk.  And the original context for Shiori's line is right next to the BHB conflict, which required Shiori to believe that Juri liked the BHB.  There are lots of ways it could have gone -- you could even guess that Shiori gave the terrible advice to "believe in miracles" so that Juri wouldn't make a move on the BHB (so that Shiori could) -- but in the broad strokes, Shiori must have been giving Juri romantic advice, and Juri must have taken it hard.

I suppose I'm just curious to see where that part of her character lands her among friends. Short Answer: She doesn't really have close friends, does she? Not of the secret sharing variety anyway.

Nnnnope.  She's often tender and protective towards Miki, but I don't think we ever see her doing any personal sharing with him.  Oddly, the closest person she has to a secret-sharing friend might be Touga.  He's already guessed her big secret, so she's able to be a little more open with him in spite of mistrusting him.  But she doesn't care for him.  Calling him her close friend would be laughable.

Hypothetical: Do you think she would have disappeared people who bugged her? Less than hitting on her with fervor, do you think she would have gotten rid of irritating persons? Or better, what do you think would make for the sort of person she'd want ousted?

That's an interesting question, and I think a good fic could make the case either way.  For my part, I don't think she'd oust irritating people; I think she'd save it for bullies, people who prey on the weak.

Hypothetical: What kind of person would make Shiori happy? She's very up and down and up again. Disallowing the "and then she mellowed out after growing up" possibility, is there a way she could be content in a stable relationship.

No kind of person would make Shiori happy, because she will still be Shiori.  Shiori is a textbook case of a person who has to learn to love herself before she can love anyone else.  Growing up is exactly what is needed -- for Shiori as for the others.

I'd like to add something about the manga...

For the most part, I would never include anything about the manga series, but having read it quite a few times I'm pretty familiar with Juri's attitude. I think it may be good to get that view of her too, even if her personality is all you can glean from it.

Manga!Juri strikes me as a bold character. She's incredibly unfriendly and the more ferocious of the Beautiful Duo. It's why they call her the Panther (or Jaguar depending on the manga chapter) There is a scene where she is talking with Miki in the fencing club. Miki says something nice about Utena and Juri lashes out. She covers, saying Miki must always be on his guard, but she is using a actual rapier. Dangerous actions for a club captain, especially when Miki seems to be her best, and only, friend.

She's angry, to put it simply. She's a ball of frustration and in a place of power. What's worse is that she puts herself on that throne, and recognizes most people as a threat to it. Utena doesn't want to fight Juri, but she is being harassed by the older student. Juri WANTS to dual. Her prince (Touga...) put himself on the line for Utena, and Juri feels like that is a threat to her world. She'd stop at nothing to get rid of our pink-haired prince. Ruthless is a pretty good word for her.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:
I reject the notion that Juri is merely "in lust" with Shiori. Not that in lust is such a terrible thing, or such, but Juri clearly gets something more out of their whole dynamic even when it's at its most painful and vindictive.

Actually, the "lust" term can apply to more than just physical sex - it's about wanting something (emotional cravings, using someone as an "object" for which to project your own wishes upon, etc).  So, for Juri to want/crave whatever she get out of their whole dynamic also made her "in lust".

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:
what's left for "in love" or otherwise?
skip
Will-to-possess and/or instant-gratification are omnipresent in the series/world, but rarely isolated from other motives.

But true love has no room for such things like will-to-possess and/or instant gratification, least it becomes lustful attraction at most.

Love is a rare thing because it's DIFFICULT and UNCONDITIONAL.  To love someone is not about what you WANT to GET from a dynamic: it's about wanting the best for the one you want to give love to - irrelevant to what the beloved one does, how they look, act, be, become, how they SEE YOU.  I would highly doubt that Juri would love Shiori if she is to swap bodies with . . . say, Tatsuya; and I don't see Juri being able to do what Ruka does - calmly setting himself up to be hated and loathed just so his beloved can be benefited, and calmly leaving when his loved one has been freed/saved.

If one can give love to someone who they knew will not reciprocate, and who does not even necessarily be within a desirable age/gender/appearance/status, then THAT's love.  To be honest, I don't think even Ruka, obviously drawn to Juri's strength and beauty, could be termed as in non-lust-based love.  I think  Utena, obviously not attracted to Anthy physically, nor liking her submissive attitude, comes the closest, but her using Anthy as a means to fulfill her ideals in the earlier eps kinda tarnish that.  Still, when she decide to save Anthy even after backstabbed (while not being attracted to Anthy's naked form), I think it establishes her as comign the closest.  As Utena herself said in ep 37, her love for Anthy is "pure", hinting that it's unlike Juri's lust/romance-mixed feeling towards Shiori (of course she then say "I'm not saying your feelings ain't pure" cause she does not wanna antagonize Juri). 

I know many define love differently than I do (thus why the many people in our worldwho claim to be in love with someone, only to change their minds or turn it ugly later), but . . . for me, that's how it is defined.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-03-2012 04:38:21 PM)

But, if under those terms Ruka qualifies... I'm kinda we're allowed to have different definitions for these things.

See my completed, edited post:

I wrote
To be honest, I don't think even Ruka, obviously drawn to Juri's strength and beauty, could be termed as in non-lust-based love.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:
but I see no evidence that she'd love Anthy as much if Anthy, say, stayed with her bro at Ohtori or suddenly took up biting the heads off live squirrels.

But utena saw some even more revolting things from Anthy prior to last duel and the night on the rooftop - that Anthy is sexing Akio her BRO.
And even though Utena then antagonizes Anthy with flaunting her still dating Akio, she STILL end up deciding to continue the last duel to free Anthy.
During the last duel, even after Anthy backstabbed her while she was really fighting for Anthy's sake, Utena still single-mindedly tried to fight on to help Anthy.
And, if I remember correctly, Utena welcomes other people getting close and friendly to Anthy, instead of wanting to keep Anthy all to herself. 
All that makes Utena's feelings towards Anthy come very close to true love to me.

(And when did I become the biggest Shiori-defender/promoter here?)

Forum rules encourage bringing threads back from the dead for further discussion if relevant, right? Is this an okay thing to resurrect? I know this thread is quite a few years old now, but dang it, I couldn't stop discussing Shiori while I was away and the forum will always feel like home for overly detailed theories and wishes! I've been slowly withering away of dehydration under the harsh sun, and Shiori discussion is the blessed water that can save me! Silly dramatics aside, I think there's a ton of baggage to unpack with Juri and Shiori and just how their relationship can even be approached. You've asked some tough questions Mooring, and between the contributors here so much ground has been covered... I'd really like to take a second to thank you all for such an enjoyable read, and an excuse to muse a little myself!

Rotten Mooring wrote:

- Shiori once told Juri to "believe in miracles" and these words had a deep impact on Juri but how much thought do you think Shiori put into that phrase? Do you think she was masterminding something designed to be agonized over later? Or was she just improvising?

I swear I'll actually answer this (in a rambling, roundabout way) by the end, but I've got a little related headcanon to preface this.  A lot of details have changed over the years (more than a decade guys, yeesh, how’d that happen?) in the way I see Shiori's full character and history, but one thing that I've always generally believed on a purely first-impression level is that Shiori comes from a deeply religious family. They might be moderately wealthy, but not much more than that, and on the whole are fairly innocuous compared to some of the Ohtori family situations. They are respectable. Her outward mannerisms have always painted this kind of image to me. In the official translation she refers to herself as "the prodigal daughter" in a voice that seems both good-natured but self-depreciating upon first meeting Utena and Anthy; she speaks politely but she invites that superficial kindness further, bringing the girls into her sparse and completely covered dorm (so as not to expose anything improper and revealing like personal decor to us) and softly requests they visit again sometime as she is without a roommate, not insignificantly, and her overall body language and tone show her carrying herself rather demurely compared to the darkness, passion, and even violence that she keeps inside. While there’s a level of self-awareness to it, I don't think it's entirely "acting" but is a reflection on the way she was raised, her behavior at home, and the behavior she exhibited in her youth-- which contributed to a confusing mix of feelings in young Juri, who carried herself regally, with a different sort of quietness, a quietness that is not inviting and approachable but striking, imposing, and alluring. Shiori's home, as I envision it, was not one of honest expression, creative exploration, or deeply emotional speech, and I believe that atmosphere carried an undercurrent of religious faith.

So a sort of sub-question to this is: does Shiori believe in "miracles" in any sort of religious sense?

...Y'know, despite the above viewpoint on her home life, I don't think that's necessarily the case either. I think the particular phrasing of a belief in miracles as advice or a dodgy "have faith and good things come" explanation is something she may have picked up on during her youth, but it exists more as an abstract concept than a reward delivered by any certain deity. I do think the wording choice here is not exactly an accident, but was not deeply thought-out either. The tacking on of "they will know your feelings" feels more like her own impression of what the right thing to say is to adapt this universal advice to their current situation, and the phrase as a whole always sounded to me like poor advice she had fleetingly put together from poor guidance she had received; the contrast of a grand but unspecific power like "miracles" to a somewhat simple and mundanely "teenage" plight of wanting your feelings known but not wanting to step outside yourself to express them makes the whole thing sound like a comfort Shiori would perhaps think to herself at times, and thus felt confident enough in it (or did not think so critically at the time ((and resentfully later on)) of the concept of "a miracle" that hadn't proven itself) to share the thought with Juri. It's possible she says this without thinking of how she and Juri differ and sees no reason for Juri to despise a concept for not being real and concrete when she herself had been raised in such a way that she did not question how much just believing something was really worth, or maybe even found comfort in the abstractness of believing; it's possible she says it as hint to Juri, and an expression of her own desire to have her feelings known without the danger of communicating them. Either way, I don't think she planned for it to be something Juri would spend years tormented by. If anything, Shiori's active fault in these early years, one that Juri shares, is a lack of responsibility for the poor communication that drives them both into their little corners of misery-- just believing something that would absolve her and by extension Juri of the risks and pain of honest human interaction is almost like a wall she's building to match the even taller and thicker wall of isolation and secrecy Juri has been building around herself.

Rotten Mooring wrote:

- Shiori tells us that Juri "was always that wonderful" and that at one point that she believed that Juri was her friend out of sympathy. (Like a skinny girl keeping fat friends, I imagine.) Am I the only one that winds up picturing Juri "helping" Shiori with something she wasn't good at and Shiori feeling condescended to rather than assisted? I'm givent o think communication between these two has always been poor.

Jumping back to Shiori's family for a moment, this is also something I feel like she's struggled with. I'd imagine they have never asked very much of their daughter beyond decent behavior. This, in some ways, was worse for Shiori's sense of self-worth, as her neuroses shaped around this lack of force or purpose and left her feeling that she could not be asked to accomplish anything because she was not able to, that there were no expectations because her "nothingness" was clear to even her parents, and as hatred for herself over time branched into hatred of others around her, she grew to resent the friend and peer who most reminded her of these feelings: Juri. Juri, who shone so brightly and brilliantly and beautifully and allowed Shiori near her as a moon in her orbit, while sharing nothing of her own fears and emotions, asking nothing, and expecting nothing from her. The internalized lack-of-pressure pressures she feels from her family are not openly stated, but instead have always been suggested, and her own mind warps Juri's withheld affections in a similar way, though I do not think that is Juri's intent (but still, unfortunate as it is, the intent can only help to inform the result-- it won't change it.) Juri and Shiori basically do the absolute worst things they can do for each other in their attempts to look out for themselves. Poor communication is absolutely their first and greatest downfall. Once the seeds of dishonesty (even if they did not think of their attitudes in such harsh terms) had been sown between them, there was no clear way to win; "helping" Shiori where she came short would serve to underline her inadequacy and humiliate her, and keeping her at arm's length, as it appears Juri increasingly did, made it clearer and clearer still how small Juri must see her as and how she must be kept around out of a sense of obligation and pity. This is not something Juri means for Shiori to feel, and I don't say that to place blame on her for it-- but they both contribute to each other's pain in their refusal to be vulnerable and honest, and contribute twice that to their own.

Happier sidenote: The fact that Shiori is in a healthy enough place to be able to stand existing in such a clearly tiered relationship beneath Juri, as the fencing captain and a novice student, is maybe the most heartwarming moment in the final montage for me.

Rotten Mooring wrote:

- Whatever happened to scary!Juri ? Before Juri vs. Utena Round 1, Juri manipulates the school principal into an uncomfortable position because her that-minute whim to speak with Utena wasn't granted and Utena reveals some of the hearsay going about in the lower grades about no one wanting to see Juri's "true face" (I may be paraphrasing that one). During Ruka's resurfacing, one of the other students actually calls Juri "scary" when giggling and gossiping to her friends (much in the context of, "Oh Shiori, you were all alone in that room with Juri? How scary!") Is scary!Juri just lip service paid by the easily intimidated masses or is there something to that?

I don't have much to add to this, other than loving the petty spite when Shiori, high on the rush of reaching above Juri and especially if she can stand on her to get there, rebuffs the other girl's claim that Juri is scary with something like "Oh, is she?" But yeah, I can definitely see Juri as an intimidating figure, and the general Ohtori masses do not get the audience-omnipotence revealing Juri's tender heart, emotional turmoil, and at times cowardice indulged in by her pride. From the outside Juri seems cold (to those who do not interact with her, at least-- maybe unaffected is a better term, as she does provide hands-on coaching to the fencing club members), imposing, and highly competent. The student council are all in enough of a position of power for the study body to see them in a somewhat dramatized way, but for the girls of the school, is isn't too hard to get close (superficially though it may be) to the charming Touga or the nonthreatening Miki, whereas Juri does little socializing outside of the club to dispel rumors of her iciness, and I doubt she especially wants those rumors to go away when they've benefited her on at least one occasion.

Rotten Mooring wrote:

It's all  too easy to get caught up in poor, tragic Juri, just trying to make Shiori happy but she certainly seems to fail at every opportunity, doesn't she?

Juri and Shiori, much as I do wish for a brighter future, just do not know how to make each other happy. Not in the past, and certainly not in the present. They have taken their internal fears, insecurities, and self-doubt and externalized it-- Juri has built it into a shield, Shiori has built it into a weapon. Since this has all just been headcanon, I have a particular one regarding Juri that I do not think is any way what canon is intending to say, but is more like self-indulgent nonsense that helps me in explaining Juri to myself. Juri tells the council the story of when her sister almost drowned, but was saved by a boy who was then swept away by the strong current instead. She says that she always found it cold that her sister couldn't remember the boy's name, though now she herself can't remember it either. The canon purpose of this scene is foreshadowing Utena's fate, but this can also relate to why I believe that as good of a character as Juri is, she is not meant to be a "prince" in quite the same way. Juri held a sense of resentment toward her sister back then, held a private belief that her sister must have been a cruel person, as she liked to believe herself to be that same selfless, heroic child who would always take action when faced with that raging water-- but this resentment has lessened now, because by the time all is said and done with Shiori (in-series) she's owned up to the reality that losing the duel was easier than losing the locket, that she could not "take action" when she believed she loved Shiori and instead allowed inaction to grow the distance between them, and now despite her attempts to "take action" (in fighting and winning the power of revolution) when she believes she hates Shiori-- metaphorically kicking off her shoes and taking a deep breath, steeling herself for the coming impact-- she is still standing firmly on the riverbank. I don't say this as a criticism of Juri or to accuse her of weakness, I say this because it is the thing that makes her character compelling for me. Juri will duel with the most polished skill demonstrated in the series, but she will discard her own rose when the locket she has only tethered herself to her own misery with is cut from its hiding place. When she looks through her own experiences at this memory now, she doesn't know if she's seeing the little girl drowning as Shiori or as herself. She doesn't know if struggling upward and outward will really save her from the water's current, and so she has, without realizing, let the girl in her mind continue drowning. Whoever she is, she can't pull her from the water and end the cycle, like a whirlpool keeping her from moving anywhere but in circles. She won't look to the balcony when she knows Shiori is there, she looks instead inside the locket when she knows she is alone-- and as hard as she tries, she can't remember that heroic child's name anymore. And that, to me, is a much more tragic idea of Juri's part in the story than one where she does no wrong.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

(And when did I become the biggest Shiori-defender/promoter here?)

Since you do such a good job of it!