This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top05-31-2015 02:24:33 PM

pschreiber
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 11-22-2014
Posts: 24

Character complexity/contradiction in SKU

Hello everyone!

     I have just finished my first rewatch of SKU, so I feel kinda like I have just officially entered the fan realm. But I guess the first rewatch is just an initiation for the next countless others, I suppose? We'll see.

     Anyway what I wanted to read your thoughts on is this point I find rather interesting in the series, which is the contradictions inherent to many of the characters, and maybe all of the important ones.
While it's interesting to define the characters in fiction by certain archetypes, simple, positive ideas, one of the things that makes the series interesting, rich meanings, possibilities of interpretation, but at the same time makes it hard to understand what's going on and what those characters are, that is, represent, especially on the first watching, is this inherently contradictory aspect of them, which does not amount to [moral]* flaws in character, but rather that the conflicting points are simultaneous, inseparable, that the contradiction makes an organic - and thus non-contradictory - character.

     Plus, what makes it more interesting is the fact that this isn't done in a cheap way, as in formulas like "human duality" or "two sides of a coin". Would it be right to say that Akio/Dios is the prince and the devil, as if saying sometimes he's a prince, as when he's courting Utena or triying to safe the Witch/Rose Bride, and sometimes he's the Devil, as then he's fucking his sister or making her stab her Utena prince. The idea that Sekai no Hate had at some point been Dios, a pure, brilliant, shining prince, and at some point in the duration of time ceased to be, seems to me equally imprecise. Rather, I'd think the two contradictory aspects of the same character are somehow the same, and thus, one should say not 'Akio is the prince and the devil', but rather the prince is the devil, even though in this context these words work as contraries, that is, it's like sayin "black is white", "good is bad", "p= non-p". That goes for other characters as well, as Anthy is a priestess, a priestess which is a whore*; Utena is at the same time the strongest and the foolest, a prince and a damsel; and so on.

     In the end, in looking at those characters, we don't exactly know what to make of them, right? Do we like them? Are their actions correct? Questions that, if we think straight, we see they're are absolutely inadequate, but that we can't help but ask.

     So I ask (TL;DR)

     1) Do you think there are characters that are simple but that make a great work? Or do you think a work to be great needs its characters to be complex or even to have this kind of contradictory character, which is of course not an exclusive SKU trait?
     2) Is it fair to say that complex or organically contradictory characters, like some characters in SKU, are always better or more interesting than simple, positive, staightforward, characters?
     3) Do you agree that these characters can be two opposite things at the same time, or do you think they have to be sometimes one thing, sometimes the other? Why?
     4) What other opposing aspects of certain characters do you find interesting?

Sorry for making the post so long or making it look like a school assignment, I wanted to make it look like it had something to be discussed about. Ty all.

*I'm not saying some of them are not immoral, but rather that immorality isn't of the essence, neither is pointing it or judging it.
*Please, I'm not condemning any behaviours represented, it's only figure of speech.

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#2 | Back to Top06-01-2015 12:13:41 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Character complexity/contradiction in SKU

pschreiber wrote:

1) Do you think there are characters that are simple but that make a great work? Or do you think a work to be great needs its characters to be complex or even to have this kind of contradictory character, which is of course not an exclusive SKU trait?

I think it can go either way, or be a mix. Depends on how the characters are being used. Cheers and Seinfeld ran forever and neither one really made anything much more than broad strokes for their characterizations. The people in Pilgrim's Progress are their tropes personified, but it's still really good.

pschreiber wrote:

2) Is it fair to say that complex or organically contradictory characters, like some characters in SKU, are always better or more interesting than simple, positive, staightforward, characters?

I definitely wouldn't say "always," but I'm not sure that it's even true the majority of the time. It is interesting, when done well.

pschreiber wrote:

3) Do you agree that these characters can be two opposite things at the same time, or do you think they have to be sometimes one thing, sometimes the other? Why?

I think that characters, like people, can be different things at different times, but also, much of what we think of as being contradictory only seems to be. People/characters are themselves, not what they seem to be.

pschreiber wrote:

4) What other opposing aspects of certain characters do you find interesting?

I love Shiori for how doomed she is. Desperate, sensitive, emotional, and yet, her way to make her situation acceptable is to dig herself in the same hole she's unhappily trapped in.

And, that Nanami's antisocial queen bitch behavior is exactly what she's being taught her social behavior should be. She's been raised - by Touga, by Anthy, by society - to be something disdained or competed with.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#3 | Back to Top06-05-2015 08:55:08 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Character complexity/contradiction in SKU

To what DD said, I'd add that SKU is largely a character-driven work, which not all literature is.  If you're writing a character-driven work and it isn't some kind of satire or other edge case, then yes, your characters need to have some believable humanity to them, which means complexity.  But if the point of your work has more to do with plot or theme or mood or setting, then character development can and perhaps should fade to the background.  The characters in "The Most Dangerous Game" are one-dimensional even for a short story, but that story is acclaimed because it gets plot and theme so perfectly right.  Murakami gets slammed sometimes for having underdeveloped characters by the high standards of his genre, but he's thought of as a Nobel laureate in waiting because he creates mood and tone so effectively and makes social points so well.

pschreiber wrote:

4) What other opposing aspects of certain characters do you find interesting?

Utena's central tension -- she wants to be a prince, but she also wants to find her prince and be his princess -- not only drives the story and sets up themes, but also just makes her really relatable to me.  Each of those poles taken alone is a source of strength for her, but taken together they are a source of vulnerability, which sets the stage for her emotional breakdown in the Apocalypse Arc.  The way forward is to move past the dichotomy of prince/princess and just be a human being to other human beings, and by the end I think she has more or less gotten there.

Wakaba's internal tension is a little different.  Wakaba has a problem with feeling inferior.  To deal with it she attaches herself to special people, but deep down she knows she can't be special by association; she has to be special because of who she herself is, and she doesn't see herself as capable of that.  Yet she is very genuinely a giver; she seems to feel most passionately, and at her truest, when she is taking care of someone.  She doesn't see how very special that makes her because being a caregiver is not very kakkoii, and because it's tricky to define yourself in terms of your attitude towards others, and because no one has really bothered to tell her how important she is.  But I defy any SKU viewer to say that Wakaba isn't special.  Honest love comes more naturally to her than to any other character in the show.

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