You are basically my idol! Shiori is my absolute favorite, not only of SKU, but of any anime. Kozue, however, is a VERY close second.

One thing I always thought about Kozue was how fearless she is. Yes, she's afraid of losing Miki, but look at it this way: Everyone swoons over Utena because of how strong, rebellious, and uninterested in what others think of her. True enough, but what about Kozue? She's willing to drive her life into the ground just to make sure Miki is thinking about her, regardless of HOW he thinks of her. She could care less about the fact that people view her as a slut and a bitch; what they think has no effect on her. She'll keep doing whatever she pleases so long as she never strays from his thoughts. She NEEDS to be his everything. How she achieves that, though, is of no concern to her at all. Thats one thing I'll always love about her. If you were to tell Nanami you hated her, she'd probably get emotional. "You could never understand!" or something like that. But do you honestly think Kozue would care what on earth you had to say about her? If you accused her love of being wrong, Nanami might lash out at you, but Kozue would simply sneer and move on.

I'm not sure that Miki sees Anthy as a replacement for a sister, but more someone to fill the void left open. When Kozue gave up music, it was like her walking out on their pure life. She opened the door to the real world, the one wrapped in sin and horror, beauty and fear. Without Kozue, Miki cannot shut that door, and impurity creeps in more and more each day. He is attempting to use Anthy to close this door, to seal off his pure and shinning world. Well, that's how I see it.

The theories of twins are so interesting, I don't find it abnormal at all to see the way Kozue feels. You're right in that people will always see them as equals, and Kozue may never be able to match up. In a lot of ways, Kozue is very human as well, though I think she hides it wonderfully. She doesn't yell or scream or cry, save for with Mikage. She's similar in ways to Juri; they can both wear a mask to keep from seeming vulnerable, but it only takes one person to break them.

Last edited by dollface (05-30-2017 03:24:58 PM)

There's one important aspect of the Miki/Kozue relationship that you all seem to be missing - the incestuous nature of it.  Now before anyone gets all up in arms saying there wasn't one, hear me out. 

It is pretty plain to me by the way both twins instantly focus on the other as soon as their's someone sexually interested in them or they show interest in someone else that there's something more than just wanting attention going on.  You have to keep in mind that the twins are 13.  What I see having happened between them is that when they were growing up, they were really close (as we all know)  And when you have a boy and a girl spending a lot of time together as their reaching puberty, and they trust each other, there's a lot of "what does this do?" that happens.  I think the twins experimanted with each other as far as what do their bodies do as they grew up.  A lot of touching and stuff that felt good to them.  I cannot hazard a guess as to whether the two actually had sex, but I'm sure they did some heavy petting.  There is real meat to this theory if you think about the scene in the Black Rose arc where Kozue comes upon Miki sleeping at the piano.  Remember, she leans down and runs her tongue along his ear when someone (Utena?) walks in and catches her.  Kozue's reaction to being caught shows us that she knows the act is wrong. 

Basically, I think once Miki realized how wrong it was for him and Kozue to play around like they had because they were brother and sister, being the good boy that he is, he ended it.  Kozue, on the other hand did not want it to end.  She liked the attention, she liked the way itf elt and she liked the way she controlled things.  Odds are, while the piano was Miki's stage, the bedroom was hers.  So when Miki said no, he took away the one place where she knew she could bend him to be like her.  Tit for tat.  Perhaps she sleeps with so many boys because she can't have the one she really wants - the one who really knows her.

Oh yes, attention is in there, most definitely, but Kozue is a vindictive girl.  She wants her cake and eat it too and when she can't have that, she resorts to nastier means to try and get as much as she can.

Last edited by angelicreation (12-16-2006 03:25:34 PM)

Archambeau wrote:

I think the difference isn't so much between Kozue and Nanami as it is between Miki and Touga. .

I think the same, Nanami and Kozue have a strange relation of need for their brothers, the difference is how their brothers react to these. Touga treats Nanami as a small princess, giving her privileges that only she has, only and exclusively but depriving her of things that exactly she is the only one that will never be able to have them. That's why is possible that Nanami is capricious and spoiled. Miki by the other hand, is shy and doesn't give anything to anybody, in fact we doubt that he has any friends (his social life, if this way we can call it, is his piano teacher and Juri). Kozue doesn't feel special, she is the only girl who is near Miki, but simultaneously she is so distant as any perfect stranger. Her distant relation with Miki does that her jealousies are less clear, below our sight, and the roots of her desire for him grow in the deepest of her, where nobody can see them and expand to a few alarming dimensions.

Last edited by Epi_lepsia (12-16-2006 03:55:18 PM)

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Miki by the other hand, is shy and doesn't give anything to anybody, in fact we doubt that he has any friends (his social life, if this way we can call it, is his piano teacher and Juri).

Don't forget Touga and Nanami - he spends time with both of them and seems to consider them as friends. He's shy, yes, but not totally closed up.

I have a precious little to add about Kozue. Excellent analysis, people.

dollface wrote:

While Nanami's love for Touga physically is debateable [ie- her watching Touga shower vs. her pushing him off her in Akios car],

To go a bit off-topic here, I would say that I think Nanami's pushing of Touga when he tries to put the moves on her, yet watching him shower signifies that she is just really beginning to hit puberty and becoming aware of her own sexuality. Consider how you felt when you were first becoming aware of your own sexuality - wasn't it a bit scary to be feeling that way? Although Nanami is starting to feel sexual feelings, for her brother to act in such a manner is pretty scary, even if it is what she subconsciously wants. And that she was watching him in the shower leads me to believe that her interest in him is not entirely free of sexual feelings.

Another way of looking at it is that she wants to be different from all those other girls whom Touga is involved with - she's already had her status as his sister taken away from her, so if she were to allow Touga's come-on, it would further make her no different from all the girls whom chase after her brother/are involved with her brother, girls she absolutely cannot stand. So this leads her to reject him. However, I'm more convinced of my former explanation as opposed to this latter.

I support MikixKozue, and I've always been very tempted to write about that pairing. This is mostly because I would love to read a fanfiction about them that is written from the point of view of a real twin. However, the thing that makes me want to write about that pairing is also what keeps me from doing so... A twin writing a twincest fic? Even so, I'll probably end up writing it eventually.

A Day Without Me wrote:

dollface wrote:

While Nanami's love for Touga physically is debateable [ie- her watching Touga shower vs. her pushing him off her in Akios car],

To go a bit off-topic here, I would say that I think Nanami's pushing of Touga when he tries to put the moves on her, yet watching him shower signifies that she is just really beginning to hit puberty and becoming aware of her own sexuality. Consider how you felt when you were first becoming aware of your own sexuality - wasn't it a bit scary to be feeling that way? Although Nanami is starting to feel sexual feelings, for her brother to act in such a manner is pretty scary, even if it is what she subconsciously wants. And that she was watching him in the shower leads me to believe that her interest in him is not entirely free of sexual feelings.

Another way of looking at it is that she wants to be different from all those other girls whom Touga is involved with - she's already had her status as his sister taken away from her, so if she were to allow Touga's come-on, it would further make her no different from all the girls whom chase after her brother/are involved with her brother, girls she absolutely cannot stand. So this leads her to reject him. However, I'm more convinced of my former explanation as opposed to this latter.

I completely agree. I said that this was debateable, as in some people can take thier relationship in many different ways. I definately sense some sexual tension in a way, but the way she pushes him away can force people to rethink this. But I too believe that she loves him but knows that pursuing him in such a way would make her "another fly in the swarm" as Nanami puts it. "I refuse to become some unanswered call!" I think that quote pretty much sums it up. Aaaah, I have to go find a Nanami forum now *prances off*

Back to Kozue though, before I go off in search of Nanami. The twin factor is so complicated. I believe that twins of the same gender are the souls of close friends. Twins of opposite genders, I believe, are the souls of lovers. I'm really not much for the idea of reincarnation, but I kind of contradict myself, as I do believe it CAN happen, but I don't think EVERYONE is. ANYWAY, I support KozuexMiki as well, partly because I am such a huge fan of twincest [one of the most interesting forms of love], but also because of who Kozue and Miki are...like two sides of one coin. So opposite yet so identical[I mean, they ARE twins...]. It's white vs. black. White being the brightest bright and black as the darkest dark, but in the end they are one in the same. If that can make any form of sense whatsoever. There is so much difference, but in the end they will never be able to be two seperate people. [I'm quite aware of how stereotypical that sounds.] Kozue creates the chains to bind them so they will eternally be one. I frankly can't ever see Miki or Kozue moving on from their childhood love. But I guess that's what a revolution is for...?

Shiori, Juri, Nanami, Kozue. Three of them live in the shadows of more dominating personalities (and Juri too in a way). All four of them put on airs of toughness and worldliness. They all despise Anthy in part because her passivity and vulnerability reminds them of what they despise in themselves.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I liked Kozue from the beginning because she scared me, if that makes any sense. She's cool, calculating and vindictive. She'll do anything to get attention from Miki and it's almost all negative attention. She wears a mask to hide her vulnerability and in that she's a lot like Juri, which is why I think there are so many Juri/Kozue fanfics out there.

On a whole that brings up something that's crossed my mind, when you have fans who strongly dislike kozue or Shiori...it's ironic, because they have parallel personalities to the more favorable characters like Juri or Utena.  It's as if , if Juri was not so malcontent and passive in her decision to be miserable, she could turn into a Kozue or someone who uses their misery to project it onto others.

brian wrote:

BTW it was Anthy who walked in on Kozue in the piano room. Anthy also giggled.

Kozue and Miki have purity/impurity issues that may be the key to their differences with Touga/Nanami.

When Anthy walks in on Kozue with Miki in the piano room, I always thought Anthy reacted that way because of her relationship with Akio. Perhaps she sees a little of herself in Kozue, much as she might see herself in Nanami, which is why she may find pleasure in both brothers interest in her.

Another way to look at that would be found in Kozues line from that scene.
"You're going to say something, aren't you?"
This could imply that she WANTED Anthy to react badly to this. She could have had the hopes that if Anthy saw something to give her ideas about the twins, then perhaps Anthy would stay away from Miki. No ordinary girl would hang on a guy they thought was having sex with his sister. I mean, look at Nanami's reaction to seeing Anthy and Akio.

But she must not realize that Anthy's no ordinary girl. Neither is Utena, apparently, since she went on that date with Akio after seeing the sister twister.

Archambeau wrote:

And we should also consider the fact that the sister of a prince is doomed to be a witch.

Ah, that had never crossed my mind. Some could argue that Kozue is trying to escape the fate Anthy lived through. She doesn't want Miki as her prince, and as such, she sleeps around in hopes to find a different prince. One who can make her the princess she desires to be. But I honestly don't believe that Kozue does what she does for any other reason than to keep Mikis attention. I guess with all her lines that support this, the theory of finding a non-Miki prince can't be believable even to someone other than me.

I thought the same thing. I found it quite depressing that Miki's story is the only one never really solved, though I may be talking from Kozue's perspective.

Maybe I'm still too innocent?? Though I sincerely doubt it O.o

But maybe I am.

I did just recently get through 800 odd minutes of Utena in three days so maybe thats it. But though I got vibes, I didn't actually pick up on any twincest. And I think I blinked and maybe missed Kozue licking Miki's ear (wtf? O.o), I thought she was perhaps just giving him a kiss or something. Can anyone think of anything else in the series that leads them to believe that there was a physical relationship between the two because its certainly interesting.

On the note of Nanami and Touga, I agree with the idea of Nanami not wanting to be another troublesome insect and thus rejecting Touga's advances in the car, and maybe she's subconsciously sexually attracted to Touga (I mean come on who isn't) but I always pegged it as more romanticized then sexual. She grew up with her world revolving around Touga, they slept in the same bed together, took baths together, when she askes him to kiss her in a much earlier episode, he refuses saying they're no longer kids, and when he suggests the same thing, she gets huffy about it and repeates similar words, that they're no longer kids (though its obvious she misses that), so perhaps Touga used to kiss Nanami on the lips as well when they were kids, as perhaps a kiss goodnight or a goodbye kiss. But when you're growing up you obviously can no longer do these things anymore, he's a boy and shes a girl and it would be improper to retain that bond because growing up you go through changes.

To me Nanami seemed like she was simply unable to accept these changes and this aspect of growing up. She still wanted to retain her happy memories of being with her brother where he's attentions on her were doting and intimate without any of the complications growing up brings.

I find I can be similar in the way that used to say that boys turned into jerks once they hit puberty. I wanted to have the same carefree close relationships I had with my male friends when I was younger but then they hit a certain age and it was difficult for me to accept I could no longer have that. (I'm still very much that way)


Great this is supposed to be Kozue and I veer off into Nanami, bloody hell

That was my take on Kozue as well. That since Miki is "innocent and pure" she can shoulder the darker aspects of the world for him instead. I mean she's never going to BE him, (hes the genuis twin afterall), and it doesn't look like he's ever going to give Kozue the affection, attention and closeness she yearns for until she is. Which she can't be. She can only be herself you know. So I guess acting up was the best she could do, I mean its what a lot of people who feel neglected do anyway. And by acting up she's close to him in a way he won't let her be.

He's the smart one moving forward, the one who's beginning to get crushes on other people. What if he leaves her behind and forgets about her. I had a lot of smart friends who went away to University. Leaving me behind. None of them ever contacted me, and though I was happy for them, I was also kinda sad since I was alone and forgotten, and those were good friends you know, can you imagine if that was your twin, and you had no parents there to support you, and that was the only person you ever really had. I wouldn't give them up without a fight. To hell if they like it or not and they think I'm degrading myself, at least their thinking....

.......about me....

I can easilly see Kozue picking the path she did just because she honestly thought she couldn't do any better. Miki's the brilliant one afterall, what else can she do. She'll never live up to he's expectations. At least this way she can protect him better.

And it doesn't matter how dark and dirty she goes, he's the good twin afterall, not her. And good twins don't really see how bad the world is. Since Miki's that way, it would be useless for Kozue to be that way too. She can't protect him if she's as blind as him to the darker aspects Ohtori.

Miki's too innocent to see the music teachers intentions, but Kozue's been there, she knows what the bastards thinking and theres no way she's going to let him ruin her sweet innocent Miki.


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Saying this, I would have to admit that the Akio arc seemed to show the end of this arrangement.

Maybe Kozue thought it was time that Miki grew up, I never really understood what was going on here in this arc with Miki's new attitude and all, I guessed maybe he was learning if you want things in life you have to grow up and take the active steps you need in order to get them, and maybe Kozue was acting as the "but do it morally" lesson. And I suppose her calling him a coward was her picking up on the fact that he learned that lesson. I wasn't so sure on Utena's comment about Miki using a childs sword, or her unfinished comment about how he seemed more of something. *shrugs* maybe I need to think about this episode more.

(Oh boi! I wished they showed more about Akio and Kozue's date in this one)


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I don't know much about Touga since Nanami's interest doesn't really go anywhere for him to be concerned. And we never see Nanami have admirers like other characters do. Take for example Utena's or Miki's or Touga's or Saionji's and so on, I mean yea aside from three guys and a little slave boy I'm not so sure Nanami IS really that popular at all. Even her own followers are more interested in their proximity to Touga than actually following Nanami. I always thought her popularity was more a state of mind (cowbell anyone??) than anything else.

So Touga doesn't really have anything to worry about there either. And even if he did, he knows Nanami's attentions are fixed soley on him anway. Aside from that forcing himself on her in Akio's car probably isn't a good sign that he's concerned with her purity.