skewed_tartan wrote:

Shiori analysis

Yes, that was pretty slick Shiori analysis. I like it, I'll have to keep it in mind when I watch the movie next.

Also, it falls in line pretty well with the theory that Shiori is Ends of the World. In the series, Akio is responsible for most of the manipulation, but he doesn't manipulate in the movie. Shiori is manipulative in the movie, and she seems to be the main impetus for the plot the way Akio was in the series. Now that I think of it, her ability to speak with the dead or have them speak in her presence might be the movie analogue/compressed version of the powers of illusion Akio controls with the projector. She calls up memory ghosts of the people she needs to move her plot along.

And actually, we see Akio display that ability in the series with Mikage... Which leads me to a rather interesting question. If Akio and Shiori have similar roles, do they also have similar limitations? For instance, if Akio used Anthy to keep from having to escape his imaginary coffin and become ready to face reality, is it possible that Shiori called up a memory ghost of Touga to keep herself in her own coffin? And there again, we come to a question I've never satisfactorily answered for myself-- was Anthy inside or outside of the coffin? The mutability of her form suggests that she was not actually present, but an illusion. If the same rules apply (and to be honest, there's no reason they should, I just think this is interesting), does that mean that Touga could have grown up after death because his spirit interacted with the world, clothed in a body made of illusion?

Is this implying the existence of an afterlife? I dunno... I'm going to have to think about this.

Okay, I'm actually going to say something productive later when I'm a little less tired.  Right now, I can only think of the three quotes that have arisen from watching that movie:

(1) "Touga is symbolism for water!!!"
--My sleep-deprived roommate... who stopped sleeping after we finished the series

(2) "The Lesbian Luge Team!"
--You should figure that one out ;)

(3) Well... (I made this forever ago):

skewed_tartan wrote:

Very very quick reply, but -- I'd always assumed movie!Akio and Anthy were /earlier/ versions of themselves.

I agree with that, I mean just look at how Anshi reacted to Utena's and Saionji's duel. She was sitting down, with her hands on her ears, like a child in the same room as arguing parents; she's not yet immune to the duels.

why Shirori is so pointlessly cruel

Are we talking about the movie? Because in the movie her motive is defined as forcing Juri to play Prince forever because Juri was in a way responsible for Touga's death, whom Shiori thought was her prince. Also in the movie Shirori acts as the catalyst for that world collapsing, she exposes the fact there is no prince, and in that effect that world cannot exist without a Prince. Touga says as much when he talks to Utena in the elevator. However she comes upon the tape, she knows what it means, and it may not entirely be cruelty that drives her to expose Anshi-its also her own need to escape from the past. So movie!Shirori does have her reasons for what she does, however she is indeed a much more selfish version of her series!self.

shiori is not a BITCH. She is someone who refuses to hang on to follow and hang on to an illusion. Shiori is to the movie what Anthy is to the series. She is not cruel. Don't say you love Akio (series) and say you hate Shiori and Anthy ( movie) who does the exact same thing he does. Women can be just as bad ass as men can.

Ivy-chan wrote:

Actually, if we want to get technical, Shiori is a bitch and so is Anthy. They can be cruel, ruthless, unlikable people who would hurt other people with no remorse AND have likable and sympathetic qualities. Who is 'worse' than who is open for debate.

Yeah.. technically the majority of these characters are screwed up. Or a bitch or a slut or a bastard, etc. Whatever you want to call them. Characters in Utena doing cruel things and sleeping with everyone is just kind of..well, the truth. Doesn't mean we still can't like them or that they don't have positive qualities too. (Or they could have virtually no positive qualities and we would STILL like them. )

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-21-2006 11:29:40 PM)

I thought it was Juri who he saved in the movie, not Shiori. It gave me the impression that Shiori was angry because Touga died saving Juri. I think Juri might have had feelings for Movie!Touga, but it wasn't really shown so much as hinted at, and that could have been a friendly relationship.

I wrote a drabble once that had Shiori as Juri's friend who also fell into the lake and drowned because Touga saved Juri first and couldn't reach Shiori. I liked the idea of Shiori as another ghost, playing Touga to Juri's Utena in a somewhat darker way, chaining her to Ohtori. I also haven't watched the movie in ages, so I can't do any in-depth analysis. Makes me want to fire up the old DVD player and just rewatch everything.

I love the drabble, Ivy-chan. It's a really interesting, and eerie, way of looking at the interactions between Juri and Shiori in the movie.

I thought the Utena movie was okay... but really... it rushed by everything... I mean... it seemed like the revolution happened in 2 days.

And the characters were greatly ignored.

But there is one thing I liked more about the movie than the anime.  Shiori's uniform.  It suits her perfectly.

Scratch that... two things... all the characters are uber-smexier in the movie than they are in the anime... BUT NANAMI GOT BRUTALLY IGNORED & ONLY INCLUDED IN THE REJECT VIDEO!!! *tearful* OH NANAMI!!!

My main reason for loving the film is the dynamic between Utena and Touga. I HATE that pairing in the series, it doesn't work at all...but with the character changes made to both for the film, it does. The elevator scene where Utena finally remembers Touga died saving someone, and admits it to both herself and him tearfully (Thank you, Touga...you really were my prince.) actually makes ME a little teary, because the theme of realizing she lost her love and yet being able to move past the tragedy at long last, for the sake of someone who needs her (Anthy) is just so powerful. It's not the pairing that I love...it's the way the tragedy of the two lovers is set up and concluded. She lets go of Touga, and he's finally able to let go and stop haunting her and progress to wherever the dead go.

Another possibility that intrigues me is that Touga WASN'T there as a ghost, that he just died and that's it. Utena couldn't let go of him, so he appeared to her as a psychological manifestation. Shiori confabulated that Touga loved her once, so that she can blame Jury for taking away her "love", because she needs SOMETHING to blame Jury for...so there's Touga #2, Shiori's psychological manifestation of him. Both derived from the same source, both different because the people who created him out of need had different motivations. And why could Anthy see him? Because in the film, it's HER game as much as Akio's. She sees everything that goes on there, and in the film Ohtori especially, there's a fine line between real things and things you want to be real. Fine enough, anyway, that Anthy could see them. Of course, this is just a theory I love and back up, I'm not putting it out there as canon. But it's an interpretation that I adore.

ZSPACE wrote:

It would have been so cool to see the million swords of hate ritual in the movie. Just as an opener. MANNNNNNN! THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO FUCKING KOOL!!!!

Ah, but instead, we get the million cars that burn with humanity's hatred! And how is that not an improvement over swords?

Hmm, suddenly this brings to mind some kind of Initial D/Utena crossover, in which the dueling game involves high-speed racing. The Car of Dios... I can see it now. And can you imagine how awesome the third story arc would be if everyone's soul cars were being drawn out of their chests?

And to top it off, imagine the duel named Revolution... against Akio in the Akio Car.

[/end threadjack]

Okay.. I finally finally got my dear wittle sister to watch the Utena movie with me.

And thus.. she created this.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/v9noop

(Basically, she took some footage from the scene where Akio was spazzing out and looking for his penis car keys and bastardized it. I LOVE IT. If anyone needs me to re-upload it later, let me know.)

I saw this movie before seeing any of the series...

I was left speechless..not out of its beauty or anything
it went WAY over my head...

Then i watched again (almost immediatly) and it made a bit more sense cuz i payed extra attention to it but it was stil "okay..why are twins in the bathtub together? ok..a car?"

Yeah..100% totally odd.
but now, seeing the entire series. I understand the movie almost completely! And It's one of my all-time-favorites...I think i'll watch it after posting this... Anyway..

Deep symbolism...

I could rant about this for HOURS.....

Imaginary Bad Bug wrote:

Suyo wrote:

I could rant about this for HOURS.....

The Utena Movie is the pinnacle of abstract and surreal storytelling as far as I'm concerned though.

It was for me, too. Until I saw End of Evangelion. At least in the SKU film, you can tell if someone's real or just in your head during most or all of it. End of Evangelion is the mind-killer. But it doesn't have people turning into cars, which, according to my best friend, makes ANYTHING at least 70% more awesome.

skewed_tartan wrote:

ZSPACE wrote:

shiori is not a BITCH. She is someone who refuses to hang on to follow and hang on to an illusion. Shiori is to the movie what Anthy is to the series. She is not cruel. Don't say you love Akio (series) and say you hate Shiori and Anthy ( movie) who does the exact same thing he does. Women can be just as bad ass as men can.

I'm sorry but why are you attacking me here? I never said Anshi or Shiori is a bitch, in fact I listed why I understand Shirori's motives and why she is hardly two dimensional though she may seem that way. I also never said I liked Akio, well I do like him in how unapologetic he is, but still I never even hinted that women can't be "bad ass", that I heartily disagree with. Are you sure you didn't get me mixed up with someone else?

That wasn't meant for you, that was for all the woman haters.