rhyaniwyn wrote:

I think sometimes Touga is given too much credit for manipulation.  I think he may jump on board with some events as they occur and put on a front that he planned it all/was in on it all from the beginning.

Well everyone's going to look like an amateur next to Akio. I agree though that at the point of the series, it's more Touga's method to tinker with the course of events already in play. He hasn't developed his skill to the point of creating events, and he's a little rough around the edges with fine tuned emotional manipulation. I would say there's definite talent there, he just needs to work on his range. The biggest block in that regard is himself, because as we saw with Utena, he's too busy assuming people are what he wants them to be to figure how to make them that way. Put in terms of Utena's seduction, Touga treated her like a princess, assuming that's what she is underneath it all. Akio took what she actually was and shaped her in that direction over time. (Deliberately unsuccessfully, IMO. He wanted a prince, but a prince needs something to overcome.)

Anyhoooooo...

Ages ago, several of you requested analysis of Akio and Anthy in the car where she's freaking out. I just finished cleaning up the caps of that episode (I had to skip a few, but still...almost done!)...soo...is time! I'm just going to straight read this stuff, I'll be leaving the motives up to you. Why? Because the exact same body language analysis is going to explainable thirty different ways depending on how you view Akio's character. I'm just gonna tell ya how he feels, not why.




Obviously, Anthy's in pain. However, it's worth noting here that in none of the shots of Anthy does she open her eyes. What the crap, of course not, shutting your eyes in an automatic reaction to pain! Yes I know, however, people in sustained pain do often periodically open their eyes, blinking rapidly before shutting them again. There's typically a rapid glancing around at nothing in particular, even if there's something the person knows to look at. (Like the source of the pain.) This is because at moments, the need to shut out the pain by closing your eyes is overcome by the defensive mechanism that reminds you to check your surroundings. If you're hunting and a tiger mauls you, you'll shut your eyes at first but damned you better open them again and figure out what the hell you're going to do. Anthy doesn't do this. We see the escaping pain reaction without the reasoned defensive behaviors, as if by long experience she's come to understand there's no outside source to account for, or no strategy she needs to devise to escape her situation. We see this again later on, Anthy doesn't do any evaluative glancing when the swords attack her in the last episode. At one point her eyes are open but she stares blankly at nothing. When does she do it? In the flashbacks, where she's shown as a child.

Another something worth noting here although I doubt the animators were doing it on purpose. (I mention because someone went HAY THIS SCENE SOUNDS LIKE SEXING.) A major difference between pain and pleasure, which as we all know can actually look shockingly similar at times, is the position of the jaw when you're on your back or leaned back. When you do so, the natural inclination is to let gravity pull your jaw down a little when you open your mouth, and when you're in pain, you don't fight this. In fact you often exaggerate it, as people also do when they're crying. (Sobbing crying I mean, not shedding tears.) However, people in pleasure often do fight this, pulling their jaw back up to a natural position, even exaggerating it to push the lower lip upwards. Why? Because it stretches the neck (an erotic zone), and forces the lower lip upward (an erotic zone), and creates a more natural position for kissing. Like I said, I don't read into it here, though Anthy's jaw is quite drawn down. Just a little .



Nothing's changed about Anthy (although I'd love to know what her hands are doing...), but boy does Akio look unhappy! This is the same Akio that drives at 983654365 miles per hour with his fingers draped over the steering wheel, confident the car will act quite the way he thinks it should. That Akio? And now...holding the steering wheel? My my! He's leaned forward, both hands on the steering wheel, a pose you see when people are trying to speed. If you've ever seen someone (a little drunk, for example) flooring the gas and going 'FASTER FASTER FAAAAAAASTER', they were probably posed like this, though they'd have looked less distressed. (More on his face later.) He seems to be straining to force his will on the car, as if the machine bows to aggression.

And yet...his index fingers are raised off the surface of the steering wheel. This would be an odd thing to see from someone who is otherwise posed in a way that would suggest they're gripping the wheel for dear life. At best this simply suggests he feels he does have enough control, even if he has to strain a little. At worst, it means he's lying.



Hey, Akio looks hot when he's stressed. He's gritting his teeth, baring them even when he isn't speaking. His eyebrows are drawn down and coming together, to such an extreme that they're drawing strain lines on his forehead. (Something Saionji gets a lot.) He appears to be genuinely exerting effort. However, his pupils are dilated. And this is strange. If he were angry (as you'd suspect he should be if he means what he says), his pupils would be constricted. If he were afraid? Thoroughly distressed? The same problem. Pupils dilated here are a major confliction with what the scene suggests otherwise. Lying by conflicted signals is a possible answer. Another is that for all of this, Akio's exhilarated. There's something here that excites him in a pleasing way, or if not necessarily pleasing, not sufficiently negative for the context.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … D_2385.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … D_2417.jpg

He was holding the steering wheel with both hands before. Now he has one hanging off the side of the car. Though it's held fairly upright, the wrist is limp, and the middle two fingers touch. (Remember what I said about that a few posts ago?) He's also leaned back against the car seat. This is...odd, given the rest of the scene. There's nothing in this shot that suggests any of the stress from before. Did his little dismissive speech calm him? Was he lying? Does he have control over the car now? Up to you. But in this shot, there's no sign of strain, stress, or discomfort. Also, the first of them is one of two times in the series it's suggested Akio's naked. The other is the star silhouette shot. The rest of the time, even when he's clearly just had sex, he has clothing on. Just sayin'.

Oh, I love reading about Anthy X Akio! This is fantastic material, thank you for piecing it together, Gio! You're the best!!!

Giovanna wrote:

There's nothing in this shot that suggests any of the stress from before. Did his little dismissive speech calm him? Was he lying? Does he have control over the car now?

Seemingly so out of place, the serenity at the end. I really noticed, from reading all of the discussions I love listening to that I don't actually have any concrete beliefs about ANYTHING in this show. It's always just, gut-feeling this, gut-feeling that, so I hesitate to offer any opinion at all. Only to say Akio's upset, then pleased, greatly disturbed me! But, I like being disturbed, anything that moves the regular thoughts away from the status quo is appealing.

While not a fan of his "character", Akio's actions in themselves - blow my mind! I never noticed the "nude" suggestion in the car - how sensual.

SleepDeptFairy wrote:

Anthy is in pain, and Akio derives pleasure from the fact that he's safe while she's being his pincushion.

Yes, makes a lot of sense!!! Fitting interpretation. I can't say I believe he cares about anyone other than himself, and this scene makes it obvious. I mean, it tricks you with his contorted facial expressions into believing on the surface - oh maybe he is upset over her pain - but then as Gio pointed out, there are obvious contradictions to that, even during his Grasping at the Wheel moment. And finally, that relaxed nude shot in the car... whoa!

(thank goodness we see the actual hair of Akio & Anthy billowing in the wind as they take off, as opposed to the trailing red & green hair of Akio & Utena's car ride)

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Maybe the sexual undertones isn't even literally about sex - it could just be pain and pleasure. Anthy is in pain, and Akio derives pleasure from the fact that he's safe while she's being his pincushion.

You just hit the nail on the head that I hadn't found yet. I was trying to figure out how to explain why Akio would be happy or pleased, when I don't actually think he's like 'YAYAYA SUFFERING LOLLER '...there's satisfaction with why she suffers and that she consents still to doing so. I don't think he likes that she suffers; the distress he does show is genuine.

YamPuff wrote:

Of course, this is just me, I don't like reading too deeply into things.

Hey, sometimes I wonder myself. Honestly, I don't necessarily assume they meant to do most of this stuff, like I said earlier in the thread, I think most of it is just understood. I use this thread not just to analyze the series but to people, since there seems to be an interest in body language even apart from SKU. Akio's eyes though...that I do read into and think is quite deliberate. It's done repeatedly during the series to the point where it's clearly not accidental. This is especially true of the last two episodes. A huge chunk of the caps I'm keeping involve the changing status of his pupils. They also do a few slick things with his lips. (I'd like to do a few slick things with his lips oh wait, this isn't IFD)

YamPuff wrote:

However! I noticed something else:
a) Anthy is not wearing her glasses
b) Her hair is down
c) They are both wearing their fancy outfits

Anthy always seems to be wearing the RB dress when she's alone with Akio, even if he's in his usual outfit. (It's that dress that falls from the couch when Nanami catches them.) I do wonder about that...perhaps they're stressing the difference of roles? She's never a school student to Akio.

Also I'm glad you all like the caps. Those scenes where there's that kind of lighted blur effect are miserable pains in the ass to cap.

Well yes, but she'd come right in from Utena's dorm. I mean times where you see she's been around him a while, she's either in the dress or naked.

Akio claims that Anthy is addicted to her pain, and that seems to be what he is telling her in that car. The thought is doubtless a comfort to him. I get the feeling that he is driving where he wants to go regardless of Anthy. If he truly wanted to help her, he would stop the car. Like other posters I get the feeling that he is the main cause of her pain. At that particular point the person stabbing Anthy most savagely is Utena herself, and who engineered that if not Akio? He seems to be trying to outrace Anthy, and leave her behind which is quite impossible while she is in the car with him.

Underneath the worldly coolness, underneath the cocky grin, and the fabulous sports car, is the price that others paid for his privileges. The World is full of people who believe, rightly or wrongly, that their pleasure is at the expense of someone else's pain and who want nothing more than to not think about that. He can't do that with her right in his face. If he can get rid of Anthy, and replace her he can build that illusion for himself.

I'm remembering a line from a satire: someone has just gotten a million dollars and says, "The World is full of disease, hunger and injustice. One million dollars won't help much but it will get me a mansion in a gated community where I won't have to look at it."

What I'm really waiting for is the Wakaba/Saionji and the Anthy, especially bits concerning when some of her real feelings show through.

Now, I love that about Saionji; it's distinctly creepy, how he can be both sweet and threatening in the same gesture. One could almost think it manipulative, if not as consciously done as what Touga demonstrates...it almost seems to fall within the "it's for your own good; I'm only doing what you want/need me to do" category, which is where you get into the mindset of someone capable of abusing another person. Which once again makes me wonder what in the hell happened to Saionji in his childhood because dude that's fucked up. It's moments like this in the series that make me quite frightened of Saionji, but as others have pointed out he seems to demonstrate this behaviour really only with Anthy. She completely brings out the worst in him, and I don't think it is because she is the general "victim" of the series, either. She's the Rose Bride, she behaves how her Victor wants...although then again, she does keep setting him off even once she is engaged to Utena. Which makes me wonder how much of it is on purpose, and what exactly Anthy wants to achieve by doing that to him. Huh.

I've always wondered about Saionji's upbringing, he seems poorer than Touga but at the same time more sheltered. In the Touga thread we can see bits and pieces that have contributed to the Touga we all know and (love??), but I've always wondered about Saionji since nothing outside of he's relationship with Touga is shown.


Also, on the pupil dilation. I have a friend that draws anime, and funnily enough I remember him telling me that Anime has its own set of rules for using pupils to convey emotion, and that its very important when making expressions, whether it reflects human body language or not is anyones guess, but it is consciously used to make expressions. For example when he wanted to make an anime character sad, he'd draw the pupils bigger, when he wanted them angry, I think he'd draw them smaller. And that sort of thing.

But yea, this has consummed an alarming amount of my time but has been FASCINATING to read. Keep up the good work.

Giovanna wrote:

Coco Melancholy wrote:

What I'm really waiting for is the Wakaba/Saionji and the Anthy, especially bits concerning when some of her real feelings show through.

I actually have a whole bunch of the Saionji with Wakaba stuff. Although the analysis is mostly on Saionji. Wakaba's body language is so straightforward there's little to say about it that isn't just glaringly obvious. I should really clean that all up.

I'm severely necroing this thread to announce I'm working on that essay again and might very well have it on the analysis site with this update.

Also to say...Saionji is a great big fucking idiot. Seriously.

Giovanna wrote:

Giovanna wrote:

Coco Melancholy wrote:

What I'm really waiting for is the Wakaba/Saionji and the Anthy, especially bits concerning when some of her real feelings show through.

I actually have a whole bunch of the Saionji with Wakaba stuff. Although the analysis is mostly on Saionji. Wakaba's body language is so straightforward there's little to say about it that isn't just glaringly obvious. I should really clean that all up.

I'm severely necroing this thread to announce I'm working on that essay again and might very well have it on the analysis site with this update.

Also to say...Saionji is a great big fucking idiot. Seriously.

I'm glad you did! I loved reading through your analysis - you make me love Utena even more. The pin-up essays were excellent, and so fitting.(I always imagined they were photos taken by Akio )

Just wondering, has anybody done something similar for the Shadow Girls?

Last edited by Adrasteia (12-11-2007 06:50:58 PM)

I think part of it is that it pushes Saionji's buttons. Even though her downcast eyes could be taken as a sign of respect (as in, she's not good enough to look at him directly) it probably annoys him instead. He really wants for her to be in love with him, by not looking at him directly she's showing both that she's subserviant to him and so nothing she does is really her own will; and at the same time that he's not even worth looking at.

When she does look at him, after his defeat, it's because he's now beneath her and she has no need for him. She's still looking down at the ground, as she had when they were 'together,' perhaps this is where she always saw him.

I think part of it may have also been to get his attention elsewhere. I think the fact that she dared speak to him the way she did outside of Utena's dorm was sort of "I am only what you truely want when you don't have me." He was v-e-r-y happy with the way Utena behaved whilst in Anthy's body as well. She dared to look in his eyes, and yet behaved in a seeming manner.

I think...
Why don't you put all this essays in a new category(like "Giovanna's Seminary"). I know that this will be an hard work but at least you know where you can find them.

I love threads like this.  I feel so much smarter after I read the posts.


I would love to see your guys' ideas on body language pertaining to Saionji and Touga when they're practicing kendo or sparring.  (Besides how much I now giggle when I see Touga's hips pointing towards Saionji ).  Kendo makes up what appears to be a big part of Saionji's life, and I also can't help but notice how differently he seems to hold himself during his Kendo matches compared to Duels.


Edit: And Gio, you can take as long as you want on that essay.  It just means it will get to be that much longer and er when it's done.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (03-26-2008 08:42:21 PM)

It's very very sloppy right now, since I wasn't sure whether I wanted to post it in the forum or as a site essay. I'm thinking I'll clean it up a bit and make it a thread, and maybe change or add points based on the feedback from conversation.

Luckily the Akio essay going on the site soon is apparently as tight as...anything involving Akio could possibly be?

...uhoh