And so God saidith on to the world, "I have a fever, and the only cure is more cowbell," and so there was and so it was good.

Even in America, Catholics tend to be democrats.  So it doesn't surprise me that a Catholic nation wouldn't have such a religious government.

I try to be tolerant, but I cannot escape the conclusion that organized religion has waged a relentless and single-minded war against the idea of America.  If you don't believe me, just take out a dollar bill and read over it.  "In god we trust" must be on all US currency, by law.  I'm not sure how that fits in with "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion", maybe someone could explain that one to me?  Organized religion has even managed to convince most people that the USA was founded as a Christian nation, have you heard them say these things?  Vicious, wicked lies.  Of the founding fathers, only John Adams was a Christian at all.  America was conceived as a nation where people could carry out their lives in freedom.  Read just about anything by Thomas Jefferson on the subject.  Or Thomas Payne, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, James Madison, etc.

And if anyone doesn't believe that religion and politics make a dangerous mix, take a closer look at Iran.

EDIT: I just looked over that beautiful first amendment again...it's important to realize that at the time this was written, there was nothing like it in the entire world.  Especially freedom of religion, it simply did not exist in that form.  Some would say that it still doesn't.  Why don't we respect it anymore?

Last edited by Stormcrow (06-05-2007 10:03:58 PM)

Sevelle wrote:

Romanticide wrote:

Sevelle wrote:

some words by me.

Wow... never thought the USA had som many problems with religion...  funny enough as even if Mexico population is mostly Catholic (Catholic apostolic roman, not baptists, protestants and the such) we got rid of the church medling in the goverment... like a century ago... with a small burst on the twentys... but people take as a given that those things don't mix...

Good look with that... those problems can cause civil wars...

Yeah, I know.

aghhh luck I mean luck... well never lose your eyes on it... in case war starts and you need to get out of the country... if you need to take  refuge on Mexico you are welcome in my house XD

Last edited by Romanticide (06-05-2007 10:27:11 PM)

Shit, we don't have the right emoticon for that.



...

Oh who am I kidding. Get me out of America please.

"America in my own time line suffered the cancer of 'Bread and Circuses' but found a swifter way to commit suicide.  I don't boast about the difference, as in time line two the people of the United States succumbed to something even sillier than Bread and Circuses: The people voted themselves a religious dictatorship.

"It happened after 1982, so I did not see it--for which I am glad!  When I was a woman a hundred years old, Nehemiah Scudder was still a small boy.

"The potential for religious hysteria had always been present in the American culture, and this I knew, as my father had rubbed my nose in it from an early age.  Father had pointed out to me that the only thing that preserved religious freedom in the United States was not tolerance ... but was solely a Mexican standoff between rival religious sects, each sect intolerant, each sect the sole custodian of the 'One True Faith' -- but each sect a minority that gave lip service to freedom of religion to keep its own 'One True Faith' from being persecuted by all the other 'True Faiths.'

"(Of course it was always open season on Jews and sometimes on Catholics and almost always on Mormons and Muslims and Buddhists and other heathens.  The First Amendment was never intended to protect such outright blasphemy.  Oh, no!)

"Elections are won not by converting the opposition but by getting out your own vote, and Scudder's organization did just that.  According to histories I studied at Boondock, the election of 2012 turned out 63 percent of the registered voters (which in turn was less than half of those eligible to register); the True American party (Nehemiah Scudder) polled 27% of the popular vote ... which won 81 percent of the Electoral College votes.

"In 2016 there was no election."

To Sail Beyond the Sunset, Robert Heinlein

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (06-05-2007 11:11:50 PM)

Most of the founding fathers weren't Christian (no matter how much some politicians like to pretend otherwise), but there was a not-inconsiderable number of deeply religious people who came to America to escape persecution by their government...and their official state religion.

Freedom of religion is good for everyone.  Protecting the state from the church protects all churches from the state.  I have no idea why some segments of the Christian majority have so much trouble believing and respecting that truth.

As someone who loves religion, but is not religious, I can only suppose that the religious fervor is doing its job too well.  A fanatic can't really take "all things in moderation."

And as a "custodian of the 'One True Faith'", of course, it's their responsibility to run this Christian nation according to Christian morals--to protect all of our souls.  It's for the best, really.  I just can't appreciate it because I'm a heathen.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (06-05-2007 11:24:44 PM)

To be honest, I always thought that all the reports of America turning into "ultra-religiousness" were over-exaggerating... but this thread tells me I was mistaken. From a foreigner, and I know you are pretty aware of what is happening:

- Money with the motto "In God we trust"? Seriously... Spain used to be quite Catholic until 1975 -end of dictatorship-, with church being more and more powerful; now I live in an a-confessional state who still finances some of the Catholic hierarchy, but there is a growing conscience that it has to end soon (unfortunately, it still represents a loss of votes for any candidate, so no one is really doing it until, say, 2050 or such). Coins used to have the inscription "Franco, por la gracia de Dios, caudillo de España" (Franco, by God's will, commander of Spain). I assure you these words can cause a commotion on most of elder people nowadays, despite them being believers.

- A little more history: Spanish Catholicism (as in Mexico, population is 90% catholic apostolic roman) was separated from Government in 1930. It returned only when a fascist dictator (Francisco Franco) reached the power in 1939 and until his death in 1975. I know America is a democracy, an old and quite profound one. You can be proud of it. But there are these little things -or not so little- that make the world wonder about the US and contribute to anti-Americanism. Mr. Bush, or any American for that matter, can pray three hours a day; it's fine! But as rhyaniwyn says, the founding fathers of the nation were not Christian nor intended to create America as the last bastion for Christianity.

- You have a fantastic first amendment, as Stormcrow says. But if it's not enough for the ultra-religious ones who think as Church and State were called to become a unity, you please remind them of Mt 22,21 "Give therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."

- Experience show that Church is not bad per se (thanks God! ). But since we entered XXIst century it is always fearing its own fading, so it’s always asking for more presence in everyday life. You finance them? They will ask for religious formation in school. You think it is ok (it is!)? They now ask for prayers during lessons, or as lessons. More? Next step is asking for a crucifix in every class. And so on. Last step: burn Muslims, homos, women, and atheists. (Ok, that may sound disproportionate, but we all know how it works)

Didn’t want to sound too pessimist. I just hope American society will be capable to return to the freedom that made your country what it is. I don’t think it is necessary to become as laic as France; maybe that will be too much of a change. I strongly believe aconfessionality is a good mid-point.

Edit: corrected some mistakes. Thank you satyreyes!

Last edited by Asfalolh (06-06-2007 12:29:50 PM)

Stormcrow wrote:

I almost wonder if people don't understand the words anymore?

I fear you are right wondering.

I recently read a study that more than half of high school students in this country thought that the first amendment protections went too far...

I'm not sure if I understand what do you mean. +50% of high school students think that government is over-protecting the observance of the first amendment?
But why should they believe so?

Ok, I understand now

Actually, this issue is also being discussed in Europe. People think freedom of speech is not important enough to let it put their lifestyle in a teorical danger (see, when you don't like or even fear the person who is speaking).
Personal freedom is having a bad time, I guess.

Edit: I don't believe that anything can be said with impunity (impunely, does this word exist?), sure.

Last edited by Asfalolh (06-06-2007 06:50:41 AM)

You know I have never really thought about it until now, but now that several of you mention Christians are pulling "persecuted" card . . . Has the burning ages completely slipped their mind? Now that I think about it, it’s really funny. Because out of all the great things Christians stand for, they never mention the darkest eras under their belts.

PS: And that goes for any power in power. The darkness never exists.

Crazy peoples hiding behind a mask!