If we're talking strong female characters:
Paradise Kiss
Mahoromatic (Even if just Mahoro)
Madoka Magica
Sailor Moon
Berserk (Casca - with a dash of "for plot reasons")
Digimon Tamers

Polar examples because nerdy:
Ikki tousen
Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
Fushigi Yuugi (Same reasons because Twilight)
Elfen Lied
School Days

Last edited by Dazmi (09-06-2012 01:29:23 PM)

For me, a feminist anime doesn't need to have strong female characters, especially if that definition of strong is "masculine while still being sexy or heterosexual."  It needs well-written, unique female characters, it needs more than one, it needs female characters of all shapes, sizes, races, personality and desire.  It needs female characters who are not defined wholly by their sex, but impacted by it and by their gender-identification in the contexts of their societies' treatment of it.  It needs female characters who have healthy and varied and non-dependent relationships with male characters.  Variety and proper development of female characters is what makes an anime feminist to me or no, and not whether or not the female lead is in any way competent or ass-kicking.  Their value and entertainment as a character must be a product of that character and writing, and not solely or mostly of their sexual or romantic appeal.

Madoka from Magica Madoka, for example, spends 90 percent of the series standing on the sidelines and crying, and likes ribbons in her pink hair.   And she is a feminist character in a feminist anime for me.  Because she is complex, because her decisions and her conflict do not surround the typical media tropes we associate with women, and because her weaknesses and flaws stem from her individual personality and not her gender, and because those flaws may in fact be her strength. 

Actaully, a feminist anime may not even need to focus on its female characters.  An anime that shows men acting in non-traditionally masculine roles with a positive light or dealing with male gender role expectations is both feminist and masculinist.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (09-06-2012 09:14:33 PM)

Dazmi wrote:

Fushigi Yuugi (Same reasons because Twilight)

Does the TV show do as much with her former BBF's rape and general mistreatment as the comic? Or, the class stuff? Or is it boiled down to a long string of "Miaka!"/"Tamahome!"/"Miaka!"?

I wish I didn't feel like such an ethnographer plumbing through all this. The original late night Eat-Man adaptation, for example, has a lot of time in it for smartly examining the roles prescribed for, and blocked from, women; gender expectations, performative gender, money and sex, et cetera, but it's also got its turns for the objectifying (and '98 is worse, as it tends towards stock reference - and I still mostly love it).

I can't see the Major and Section-9 of Ghost in the Shell without Shirow's butt-shots and fetish nurses in my head, the movie's insistence on stripping her down and masculinizing her, but I also think Shirow's more on the ball than it sometimes appears, and the TV show had some brilliant bits to it.

What's cultural? What's predicting an audience expectation? What's a soft sell constitute in modern Japan? I feel a little too judgmental trying to sort those out.

Lightice wrote:

In Man-Machine Interface Motoko Aramaki at one point wears a hyper-masculine body builder body at one point just to hammer in that bodies mean to her about as much as clothes mean to us.

And, Shirow in Man-Machine Interface claims it's all eyepull, as well, a distraction for the folks around her. And, fair enough. But he's also been open about things like drawing the sex scene in the first comic with all women because he wanted to avoid male nudity and about the nudity at the end of M-M I not truly existing in any ways, except representationally, because our protagonist has no subjective frame of reference for an outside viewer.

Shirow's smarter and more commercially-savvy than most people want to credit him, I think. He's using the eyepull on the audience, too, but he's not telling them not to enjoy examples of classically Shirow-drawn ass. Exploitative to get us to pay attention, perhaps, but still exploitative.

Lightice wrote:

And I really doubt that Mamoru Oshii had fanservice at all in mind when he reimagined the Major for the movie.

Not fanservice, per se, but he did strip her down, probably to reenforce a sense of total-nakedness or vulnerability that's not, reasonably, physically there. He also destroys the hell out of her body, at the end of the movie. The masculinization was intentional, however, and he has addressed in interviews how he thinks it portrayed her as "stronger," which I can see an audience intuiting, but don't agree with. But, yeah, there's a sex-sell in stripping her down, as well, and the fact that many people remember Ghost in the Shell as, or heard about it being, the movie with the naked cyborg chick that's really smart and artsy, means the sex-sell worked.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Shirow's smarter and more commercially-savvy than most people want to credit him, I think. He's using the eyepull on the audience, too, but he's not telling them not to enjoy examples of classically Shirow-drawn ass. Exploitative to get us to pay attention, perhaps, but still exploitative.

It's the art style that he developed while drawing erotic calendars so yes. It's main purpose is most likely to lure buyers for a work that is difficult to comprehend, and wouldn't enjoy nearly as great commercial success by itself. But as I said, Shirow puts attention to the artificiality of his erotica. His real women are normally proportioned, even somewhat plain, but most of the women he draws are machines built with attractiveness in mind.

Not fanservice, per se, but he did strip her down, probably to reenforce a sense of total-nakedness or vulnerability that's not, reasonably, physically there. He also destroys the hell out of her body, at the end of the movie.

To me the nudity did not read vulnerability at all; the Major is never naked in her most vulnerable moments in the movie. She's naked when she is using her body as a utilitarian tool honed for maximum effectiveness, stripped of all humanity.

The masculinization was intentional, however, and he has addressed in interviews how he thinks it portrayed her as "stronger," which I can see an audience intuiting, but don't agree with. But, yeah, there's a sex-sell in stripping her down, as well, and the fact that many people remember Ghost in the Shell as, or heard about it being, the movie with the naked cyborg chick that's really smart and artsy, means the sex-sell worked.

Again, the masculinization of Motoko's frame emphasizes the utilitarianism of her design. A masculine shape is physically stronger than feminine one, and in the movie, unlike the manga or the TV-series, it wasn't built to be beautiful, but to be an effective weapon. And I never really found the movie Motoko sexy in the slightest. The camera treats her body with as much appeal as a storefront mannequin, which it also zooms to at one point just to hammer in the comparison. Also, it's not exactly easy to view someone as a sex object when the first sight of her is with her skin off.

You are focusing way too much on the visual elements when dealing with implications of sexism or feminism, I think. Those are only a tiny part of the whole picture. It's the story, the characterizations that you should be paying attention to, when deciding whether the story treats its female characters as individuals or just prizes or extensions of the males.

Porco Rosso!! Pretty much anything by Miyazaki, though

^Nana pisses me off. It's so addicting, it's a love hate thing lol, but Nana O. I feel just isn't as strong as people think, in my opinion. (spoilers) but the whole reason Nana dresses like that is because of Ren, in one chapter we learn he bought all of her clothes. Her piercings are JUST like his, she wears the same boots, her style fits his, and the reason she began singing was because REN asked her. Heck, the reason she moved to Tokyo and started a band was to show Ren up. Her whole life revolves around Ren, and to me that's not cool or independent. Her only tattoo is because of him. The only thing in her life not really influenced by Ren is when she moved in with Nana K.

Sure, she liked the sex pistols because of Nobu, but I don't think that would be such a big part of her if it wasn't for Ren.

Nana K., I loved until she got pregnant and chose Takumi. That was so stupid of her, and that was around the time I began feeling for Nana O more. I think Nana O. doesn't deserve all the glory she gets, especially up until that point. She gets better after that point, and I think focuses on herself more, but that's only because she has Ren.... then you know what happens, and now, she's just sulking! It's understandable, but basically her life is for Ren.

JO makes an excellent point on Modoka Magica, in that it is not simply dark deconstruction or subversion, but tragedy written right.

My actual beef with the series lies in the dialogue.  The characters are complex, but some of the dialogue is so explanatory that it takes all the fun out of figuring them out.  And I am not talking about Kyubey.  They are deep, they just aren't hard to figure out.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but keeps it from being a 'perfect' show for me.

I second many of the suggestions already offered, in particular:

Seirei no Moribito
This is a criminally underrated anime in virtually every single way. It takes place in a very cool Asian fantasy inspired setting and stars Balsa, a former assassin turned protector of a young prince. Without spoiling anything, Balsa is a great example of a very rounded character who is not just determined by being the 'warrior woman' motif. Her past regrets and drive to atone is only part of who she is as a person and the delicate relationship she strikes with the prince does away with the typical clichés that anime all too often falls into. It is also worth mentioning that apart from her the entire cast is beautifully developed, including the males.

Haibane Renmei
Haibane is one of my top ten favorite anime and one of the reasons is the sober, thoughtful and yet exciting way it handles female relationships even as it builds a most remarkable world. It is a wonderful case of using an almost exclusively female cast to present a variety of different girls, all of which add something to the wonder that is HR, so that even the secondary characters add a layer of emotional depth to an already extraordinary narrative. Reki and Rakka, the mains, are fleshed out in enoug detail to come across as real. Few times do I ever actually relate to an anime character but Reki reminded me of myself a lot.

Very much along the same lines but in a sci-fi setting is Dennou Coil.

Hanasaku no Iroha is a coming of age story about a teenager who starts working and living at her grandmother's ryouka when her mother bails out on her. Ohana must struggle to adapt to a very new environment with its own rules while she balances her emotional life that includes a now long-distance relationship. It is not just a coming-of-age narrative as it tackles some very pressing issues that are particularly relevant in Japanese society such as the inter-generational gap and the pressure the traditional hospitaly suffers in the face of new, hip hotels.
Ohana is very believable as a person and the people are just as realistic, in particular the girls that include the daughter of a wealthy hotel chain and a very non-nonsense colleague who does not easily accept her interferance in ryoukan matters.
Part of what makes Hanasaku so great is how well rounded it is. It covers characters with different motivations who have to deal with everything from work to romantic relationships to figuring out just what they want out of life. Very often anime will latch unto one trait or activity and build a character almost exclusively around it (and this is not necessarily bad either, it works in sports anime when done correctly) but Hanasaku manages to level of balance that strikes as very true. Ohana does worry about her relationship with her boyfriend will be strained (and it is remarkable the story opens with her already in a relationship, that is oddly rather rare) but it only one part of who she is.
The extremely detailed artwork that brings the ryoukan to life adds to the overall very positive experience.

I disliked Charlotte with a passion and actually thought it did a disservice to its female character, especially the little sister who is extremely otaku-based. But I admit my bias as, again, I truly hated virtually all things involving the anime.

But the blind singer was something of a highlight.

Nocturnalux wrote:

I second many of the suggestions already offered, in particular:

Seirei no Moribito
This is a criminally underrated anime in virtually every single way. It takes place in a very cool Asian fantasy inspired setting and stars Balsa, a former assassin turned protector of a young prince. Without spoiling anything, Balsa is a great example of a very rounded character who is not just determined by being the 'warrior woman' motif. Her past regrets and drive to atone is only part of who she is as a person and the delicate relationship she strikes with the prince does away with the typical clichés that anime all too often falls into. It is also worth mentioning that apart from her the entire cast is beautifully developed, including the males.

Haibane Renmei
Haibane is one of my top ten favorite anime and one of the reasons is the sober, thoughtful and yet exciting way it handles female relationships even as it builds a most remarkable world. It is a wonderful case of using an almost exclusively female cast to present a variety of different girls, all of which add something to the wonder that is HR, so that even the secondary characters add a layer of emotional depth to an already extraordinary narrative. Reki and Rakka, the mains, are fleshed out in enoug detail to come across as real. Few times do I ever actually relate to an anime character but Reki reminded me of myself a lot.

Very much along the same lines but in a sci-fi setting is Dennou Coil.

Seconded, seconded, and seconded.  Also very glad to see I'm not the only one whose reaction to Dennou Coil was "omg, it's Haibane Renmei, but IN THE FUTURE"

I didn't have a problem with Kill La Kill's fanservice because it was too self-aware and too over-the-top to the point of parody. Besides the fact that it had a large cast of female characters and a variety of relationships between them. I like the way Satsuki is held in complete awe and worshipful regard by all, not because she is a woman or sexy, but because she is powerful and competent. I like Mako because she's weird and funny and Ryuko because she has the personality of a shounen protag. It didn't try to pat itself on the back for being 'supervise' or 'empowering', it was too busy having fun doing it's own thing.

I will nominate Princess Tutu!! Princess Tutu is an anime where your gender simply does not matter - not even your species! The prince takes the role of the victim, the knight is too afraid to fight, the magical girl princess is actually a duck and the villain is not who you really think! All the characters are dynamic and interesting and the way they balance everything out is amazing. There is no one hero, everyone works together to achieve the ending. It's just beautiful. C:

Kill la Kill is loaded with fan service, yeah, but I didn't really see it as a critical parody. If anything, it was a celebration of how far they could take it, to the point where, honestly, it just felt stapled on.

As much as Charlotte gets crapped on by some folks, at least it took a stand on comedy lechery and the cult-worship of the available female body.

I watch a lot of pervy stuff, of various varieties. I don't think I can be categorized as a prude. But, I think Kill la Kill's fans defend its excesses in certain directions more because it's otherwise good or because they like it, than on secure grounds.

I don't think it's the worst thing ever, but YamPuff, I imagine the reason it didn't pat itself on the back constantly is because a) it didn't do enough to warrant that kind of congratulations, and b) it was using its hands for other business. I'm not against the show, but it was pretty much a wankfest of a show.