Well, their whole argument is that Akio's appearance as an older man gives him power over Utena that may have affected her actions. Anthy, who appears as a fellow student, doesn't have that same authority.

I wonder what these lovely people think of the Usagi/Mamoru relationship in Sailor Moon. I mean, she was even younger than Utena when their relationship started.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

And after the Miki-is-a-snail realization

...holy shit. HOW DID I NOT REALIZE THIS SOONER.

...and Saionji's the frog, right? GOD IT MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE.

I'm actually about to go to work so this isn't the time for the full rant, but apparently people on Tumblr actually think I don't think what Akio's doing is sexual abuse, and that I'm apologizing for his behavior and blah blah. It's actually pretty offensive to hurtful, given that I have an entire shrine devoted to how much of a jerk I think he is. Is my condemnation of his behavior a little less venomous? Yess....that's because I THINK IT'S HOTTER THAT WAY. (Go on, kink-shame me. I DARE YOU.)

The crux of the issue is that I describe a lot of the acts as sex, instead of rape. There's a reason for that. Aside from that it's obvious if you read the content that I think it's rape, I don't like to use the term because for me it distracts from the actual conflict his behavior creates. Which isn't about rape. The damage Akio does is in where his victims see, whether it's real or not, their consent. Utena's traumatized by the events of episode 33 not from a sense that she was violated, but from the perception that she allowed them to unfold as they did. Calling it rape underplays the sense (illusory though it is) of free agency she had. Yasha says that I'm kind of a relic there, that these days calling it rape is a definition and won't distract from that argument. Hey, maybe so; I'm a relic. Calling it rape ten years ago would have implied a completely different interpretation that robs Utena of any perceived decision in the events. (Which was also a legitimate interpretation and still is. Seriously, it's a very subjective show no matter how you peel it.)

That said, if what Akio does to Utena is rape, he literally rapes god damn everyone he fucks. He rapes Anthy, who despite being his age is in a 'forced' submissive position. He rapes Touga, who IS ALSO UNDERAGE AND SO NOT CONSIDERED ABLE TO CONSENT TO CONSTANTLY GETTING RAMRODDED IN THE ASS WHILE DISCUSSING MANIPULATION PLOTS. He rapes Kozue, WHO IS EVEN YOUNGER THAN UTENA BUT NO ONE EVER REMEMBERS THIS.

Probably the only person he doesn't rape in any way is Kanae's mother. That's a weird situation, you could perversely argue it's her 'taking advantage' of him. She certainly pretends that's how it is, even when they know better.

But it is kind of a double standard, especially with Touga. Which is funny, because the two year difference isn't what I think magically makes people view him as a consenting party--it's his behavior, and his penis.

Anyway, long story short, Tumblr: AKIO IS A RAPIST. YES. I KNOW.

He's just a way more nuanced and sexy rapist than, say, the one in Irreversible.

Oh, and I do get to fetishize and joke about rape. Because guess what! I was raped! So none of that 'I don't know what it's like because I need to check my non-raped privilege' or something.

crystalwren wrote:

Also, said people were so barely that they kept screaming about how Akio's actions were illegal... Without even considering that Akio didn't actually break any laws in Japan. You know, where the series was made for an audience that was also Japanese. But that's, like, omg, like sooo not, like, gotta do with anything or sooo, not, like, going to have any bearing whatsoever on the characters or their actions and the implications there of.

Perfectly stated and to the point.  The series came out before 1999.  Depending on Ohtori’s location the sex was likely completely legal for its time, place, and setting (his highly publicly engagement to Kanae, a student, is what makes Akio the Acting Chairman).

And kudos to whomever mentioned the Sailor Moon couple upthread, cause their age gap is near identical to that of Akio (human identity age 18-19) and Utena (age 14).

As for Utena + consent . . . Utena's first glimpse of Akio was of him making out with Kanae.  She knew he was an engaged man from the get go.  Any non mentally handicapped 14 yr old knows how hurtful an action it is to have an affair anther female’s boyfriend, let alone a wedding-bound fiancé.  She was treading into homewrecker territory and she knew it.

In the Barefoot Girl Episode, Utena even told Akio that she think/know he is “bad” . . . right before she let him romance her (at a public spot, even).  The relevant scenes sets it up so that Utena’s action directly mirrors that of Mrs. Ohtori: both knew they would be hurting Kanae by having an affair Akio, but both went ahead with it anyway to sate their own emotional/physical needs. 

Utena’s affair with Akio is meant to showcase both moral lapsing and willful blindness on her part.  There is even the scene where she recognized Akio’s car to be the one showing up around the duels, but decided not to pursue it further just so she could keep the affair going.  The only thing she truly did not know going into the affair was that Akio had a sexual relationship with his sister Anthy. 

Now, does Akio’s omission of his relationship with Anthy made the sex with Utena rape?  Some think so, using words like dubcon and such. 

However, if using lies/omission of facts to get sex from willing/eager partners can be called rape, then the following characters are likewise rapists:

Shiori:  She told nameless boy that Juri loved another while she herself thought Juri loved him, then getting a sexual relationship out of it.   She then lied her way into a sexual relationship with Ruka.  Sure, Ruka saw through her lie and played along with her, but that does not change the fact that she has both the motive and the action to constitute her “raping” him.  Does that make her a serial rapist?

Kozue:  She faked interest in god know how many boys just to make Miki pay attention to her.  She had sex with all those boys who got deceived into thinking she was somewhat interested in them.  Wouldn’t that make her a . . . wait, she really is a rapist.  See EP 26 where she rapes Anthy right in the middle of the duel.  Gee, I wonder how come almost no self-rigeous Tumblr SJW ever mentions her during their rabid SKU rapist hunt.  Could it be because Kozue is non-male and thus exempt from their male-targeting scrutiny?

Anthy: Who can forget her literally screwing Mikage for decades with her “Mamiya” deception?  And the way she “sealed” Dios in that sexually charged scene . . . and how Akio said she is making him suffer after their having sex, hinting that that spousal/sibling rape goes both ways.   So by this logic I guess those Anthy apologists on Tumblr are all really rape apologists just like the “Akio did not rape Utena” theorists they so love to bash.  Who knew?

Hypocrisy much, anyone?

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (06-17-2014 01:24:27 PM)

Anyway, I think we need more words to describe different forms of sexual abuse. Lying your way into someone's pants doesn't always mean you had sex without someone's consent.  I also think it's possible to agree to have sex with someone and feel traumatized with no manipulation used by the sexual partner, for example imagine a young woman with no sex education that agrees to have painful sex with her beloved one because she has no idea it's supposed to be pleasurable to her. Her partner may not be aware of her experience.

I may consent to sleep with someone and think "Hey, I didn't agreed to THAT" for various reasons. A lot of people may agree that sex that was too rough was rape, because the person didn't consent to do that kind of things. What about the sex that wasn't rough enough? So, when we reframe that "I didn't agreed to THAT", the unsatisfying sex is rape, because no one gave consent to be sexually frustrated.

So.. to me,  Utena wasn't raped, but was sexually abused. Her sexuality was used against her, not ignored by Akio.

I think the nail was hit on the head once Yasha mentioned the difference between rape and statutory rape. That's an important distinction when definitions of things are being discussed. And it's interesting that saying you agree it wasn't okay and that you're not defending Akio wasn't enough to settle the argument.

Kozue doesn't get the same interpretation as Utena because she didn't have such a clear-cut scene of doubt. Kozue puts on a good show, but it's questionable how many of the guys she slept with she actually wanted to sleep with. Her promiscuity comes from the issues she has and that was addressed in the series. Kozue is ignoring her feelings or 'handling' them in a different way than Utena, who is closer to them and thus we see her questioning her decision. Which is to say, yeah, why aren't we so passionately talking about Kozue, too? But you know, Utena's the protagonist and you're allowed to have favourites.

And Gio raises an interesting point. I'm wondering where will all this social justice and political correctness lead to. Tumblr is only a small chunk of the western world, but it still has its influence and I wonder if arguing about semantics is going to improve anything. Words are powerful and the language we use influences how we see the world, definitely. At the end of the road, the goal is for young people to be able to identify when they are in a situation in which they ought to say no and impersonal rules which apply to everyone in a certain age group may not be enough of an incentive for people within that age group to say no. But that's where the talk about whether you want it or not comes in. The rest is up to them, I guess. Perhaps it's important to have both conversations. The distinction between rape and statutory rape.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Does tumblr really have a significant influence? Mostly it's just an overlarge image repository or blogging platform. I don't think a huge amount of people are really looking to it for guidance. In particular, how many actual tumblrs have any genuine influence on anyone who doesn't have a tumblr or isn't there just for one fandom or another?

I would say Tumblr exerts its influence the most when you participate in the community. As any community, it has it's unwritten rules, accepted truths, humor and opinions. Someone who has just entered the community may have their opinions changed. Or they may not. Whether or not that is significant influence, I wouldn't know. The fandom side of it is significant enough for shows to have official Tumblrs, interacting with fans and even, I would guess, sniffing out what is the general response to certain creative directions of a show. It's significant enough for someone to pay attention to it and for people to know exactly what kind of crowd is the Tumblr crowd. On a global scale, that might not be much, but we can assume, for example, that a social justice blogger's opinions do not turn off when their computer does. And that includes all those who have had their opinions changed through their influence.

As for political correctness... Political correctness =/= better world. So whatever worry that may be felt is related to the fact that even if the world becomes politically correct, but the same attitudes remain underneath all the sterile language, all the effort put into expressing yourself in a certain way won't mean much and may even make problems more difficult to detect, because it will be more subtle.

[/kind of off-topic]