Thlayli wrote:

I need to crank up my schadenfreude if I want to fit in around here. Or my sense of style, at the very least.

Gio's the evil one. The rest of us are pretty okay

Thlayli wrote:

I also need to arm myself against my assumptions and organize my thoughts properly, rather than jumping back and forth in edits. So until they are shown to be utter hraka by the show, these will be my theories going into the next few episodes.

I like you. You think about things.

Thlayli wrote:

stuff about Utena's princeliness

...wait, I can't even explain what the poptart is about until like episode 22 or 23 I think... Um, poptarts are a good thing, and generally around here we use that to signify when we really like something and are excited about it.... mostly? Sometimes it means annoyed or threatening though. Depends on the context. Since there is no real context here, it basically means "good stuff, have a poptart!"

Thlayli wrote:

I hope my bewilderment is amusing to all of you in the know. Hopefully it'll be possible to start tying things together as I get through the episodes.

I'm not going to tell you what, but you're already putting things together.

YamPuff wrote:

I JUST WANT TO GET TO THE NEXT PART.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Be patient and let it happen. It comes sooner than it feels like.

satyreyes wrote:

Maybe she's just tharn?, and good God, have I been a member of this forum for this many years without realizing that absolutely everyone speaks Lapine?

Gio didn't read the book until last year or so. I think my description of the Bigwig-Kehaar bromance is what convinced her.

YamPuff wrote:

Episode 3-related material removed by moderatory fiat even though it was really funny

Be good or I'll spank you

Hello everyone! YamPuff, I'm sorry, I'll get caught up soon, I swear

Got some more stuff upthread to respond to, but for now...

= = = = =

Duel 2: "For Whom the Rose Smiles"

The OP is even more glorious than I remembered. Utena and Anthy are in a foetal position in the first section, aren't they?

Is a smiling rose a blooming rose? (For what it's worth, the title of Duel 1 was The Rose Bride.)

Good morning, Ohtori. Everybody's walking to school, though three girls do hold up their walk to paean Utena. "She's so COOL!" Several glamour shots of Utena's unsurmountable coolness, each with a pink rose frame.

Once in the classroom, Utena spies Wakaba, now sat quietly reading. We're treated, via flashback, to the boys reading out her love letter once again. Utena tries to engage her friend in conversation, to no avail - but as Utena turns away, Wakaba loudly snaps her book shut and gives us a synopsis.

It's a story about a woman rejected by the man she's always loved - although heartbroken, she recovers, another man appears and she ends up with him. Wakaba used to think it was the stupidest book of all time. Now she thinks it's genius.

She certainly seems to be aware of the irony. Is she offering Utena insight? "The story I chose for myself would not come true, so I have chosen another"? I googled the book and saw that it's a manga by Chiho Saito (of SKU fame). What if she was saying, "In our story I can either keep quiet about my feelings or I can be shamed and degraded in front of our peers. I used to think this other story was stupid, but now I'd rather be in it"?

Anyway, her self-awareness regarding her change of perspective seems to have perked her up. The girls share a smile and then Wakaba is right back to annexing Utena's personal space. The experience hasn't brutalized her. Nobody is as loyal to you as Wakaba is, Utena!

Oh, Anthy. Hello. You're in this class now? Awkward.

Now we're in an ascending elevator, with the student council theme playing. As the elevator passes each floor, the silhouettes of Touga, Orange and Blue appear while Touga recites a brief passage:

"If it cannot break its egg's shell, a chick will die without being born. We are the chick, the world is our egg. If we don't crack the world's shell, we will die without being born. Smash the world's shell. For the revolution of the world!"

So... uebermenschen? Or just determinators in search of knowledge? Does revolution imply a great upheaval, or the motion of the planet which gives us days and nights?

They're playing a card game. No idea if the aim is to have as few or as many cards as possible. End of the World is apparently a 'him', not a 'they'. Orange doesn't like Utena muscling in on their battle royale, but can't do anything about it. End of the World's communication with them is unidirectional - he sends them instructions, they act upon them.

Do we know if Utena has been getting letters from him? The council don't seem to. Hell, would Utena know? It makes him sound like a drive or an instinct. Especially with a name like End of the World.

Looks like the current student council began the dueling game. I suppose each of the council have all won the Rose Bride before Utena came along? I wonder how they behaved. The impossible castle is the Phantom Castle, and the ultimate winner of the BR, I mean the dueling game, has to enter the castle in order to obtain the power to bring revolution to the world.

Looks like Touga won with two Jokers. Guess the object was to get rid of your cards last?

Blue's stopwatch says 00:16:42. The fucker's just toying with me.

Okay, so the student council have assigned Utena to a new dorm - one that's been deserted for ten years, that's not forboding at all - where she'll be living alone. She doesn't mind, rationalizing it as being more in keeping with her public image. We get this info from a neat little montage of Wakaba and Utena walking through the (absolutely huge) campus. I won't tangent off into this now, but I'm really curious as to how these girls met.

Utena's new dorm appears to be empty. She finds her room. Standing outside, she first pictures it as a smashed, ruined wreck, before stepping inside to see it has nice parquet floors, a high ceiling, excellent lighting and an Anthy. Um. Hi again. Oh, you tidied up? Utena, how's that public image doing now?

They drink tea and have that conversation I referenced earlier. Copying and pasting:

Utena:  If you don't know [why there's impossible castles], then why do you do that?
Anthy:  Why do you always dress like a boy, Miss Utena?
Utena:  What, this? Well... because I like to.
Anthy:  The same for me.

I think that Utena's answer, while not a lie, was not totally honest. Anthy picked up on that, and coached her answer in the same manner. So - oh, is it mascot time already? Chu. Chu-Chu, Chu. He's Anthy's friend, not her pet. That's the first normal relationship I've seen her have. Utena seems quite fond of him, at least enough to save him from choking, but a little less fond of the way Anthy addresses her. Perhaps it reminds her of Saionji. Anthy tells us that anyone who wears the rose seal ring is marked as a duelist, and that as the reigning champ, Utena will be facing challengers.

Utena hates the idea.

Cut to Saionji looking ominious. He's practising his swordplay and seems to be quite invested in it, almost accidentally piercing Touga. Is Touga disturbing his Vice-President?

"No, you're generally welcome into my domain."

Yeah, I bet he is. Touga questions him over his intentions. Is the big bad swordsman going to challenge the schoolgirl again? (Touga, what are you doing?) Saionji is apparently entitled to the power to bring the world revolution, and therefore to Anthy. Losing to Utena was just God playing a little joke. Touga twists the knife a little bit, so Saionji flashes his big sword at him and reiterates that it doesn't count if he loses, according to his exchange diary.

Exchange diary? You?

Back at the dorm, Utena is in the dining room, which is otherwise deserted. So, Anthy cooked? Or are there staff hiding behind the drapes? Chu-Chu scampers in and seems to want something... Hello, Saionji. He wants to know why Anthy won't do as he says - after all, she devoted herself completely to him while they were engaged. (Isn't that her job? Now she's devoted herself completely to Utena, because they're engaged.) She asks him to forget about her. For a moment he looks... I was going to say contrite, but judging by the violence meted out arbitrarily a moment later, I'm guessing he was just having a moment of self-pity.

Saionji, stop hitting people. Just stop.

Utena and Chu-Chu come to the rescue. Utena comforts Anthy while Chu-Chu tries to kill Saionji's shoe with a fork. (When Saionji stepped on him, I was so disoriented by the show that I thought he'd actually killed him for good. It was weird.) Saionji challenges Utena. She believes the duels are ridiculous, asserting she fought Saionji because he hurt Wakaba, not to win a Rose Bride. Tough luck, these are the rules, and if you don't like them the student council can make you... disappear.

Maybe the student council are writing the story, and can take you out of the narrative if you won't act like a prince.

But this is Utena's story, so what if she does just leave?

Saionji stalks off, Chu-Chu waits until he's out of earshot before jumping up and threatening him again. Very wise. Anthy points out that Utena had decided not to fight any more duels, Utena counters saying she doesn't want to be kicked out. She'll just purposely lose. Poor, poor Anthy.

Ooh, another shadowplay. "But it's okay, I lost intentionally!" Heh.

Utena climbs the impossible staircase again. A lot of this is recycled footage, isn't it? With little changes here and there for me to initially miss. What larks. This time, Anthy dresses Utena for the part with a wave of her hand, then deals out the roses as before. She once again tells Utena to be careful. Utena has no intention of getting hurt in a duel she's going to throw. Anthy calls forth the power of Dios - I didn't notice before, but to obtain the sword, her partner lowers her into that traditional swept-off-her-feet pose, complete with smile.

It's Anthy who actually posesses the sword, but it isn't hers to use. She calls upon it herself, but only does so at the bidding of her master. Only her master can use her power. That's interesting. (And horrible.) Is there even a meaningful distinction between Anthy and the sword? I'm thinking no.

"Grant me the power to bring the world revolution!"

Utena might be intending to throw this fight, but she's playing the part admirably. Bells toll. The duel begins. As does the duel theme, which is even better than the last one This soundtrack to this series is amazing. Saionji is strong, or at least desperate. Anthy watches impassively. Utena is forced back under his blows and is almost disarmed. Saionji swings and Utena dodges, covering the rose with her hand.

"But, brave hero, will it really be so easy?"

We see Utena's expression reflected in a lens of Anthy's glasses. Saionji understands Utena, and Utena understands the duel. Touga is watching the drama play out from his perch. (I have no idea where that is.) Utena and Saionji lock swords, Saionji still ragging on Utena. Apparently, her sword is useless in her hands - it ought to be his. CRAZY EYES. He punctuates his point by kicking her in the gut, sending her flying. It's in keeping with his character, and it's a low blow, but I have to admit it's a pragmatic move.

Saionji comes closer to brag. ("If you're ever at someone's mercy, pray they're a wicked man. A good man will kill you quickly. A wicked man won't be able to without grandstanding. So pray he's a wicked man, and keep him talking.") Saionji raises his sword to strike, and...

...what?

I, um. See, the...

...what?

Utena's rose seal ring begins to sparkle, a column of light reaches between her and the impossible castle and the prince, her prince, the prince from her memories, descends as a ghostly shade and, obscured by a censor-like spinning white rose, merges with her. Utena is lifted off her feet, her features shifting between her own and those of the prince, she charges and-

AMMONITE

-well. Of course Saionji loses, getting his damn sword cut in two for his troubles. Castrat-ouch.

Well, didn't see that coming. Neither did any of the characters. Was that the power to bring the world revolution? Time will tell. Also, this has been a very monochrome anime so far, but the prince - his skintone is hardly out of place in Japan, but it's exactly the same as Anthy's. This is a somewhat shitty conjecture, for reasons, but is there a connection?

Back at the dorm, Utena is tormenting a small animal - okay, fine, she's just teasing Chu-Chu with a dessert - and Anthy enters. She asks, or states really, that Utena didn't purposefully lose. Utena shrugs it off, saying she did it for Chu-Chu.

Anthy smiles.

Missing truth and forever, kissing love and true your heart.
Hold me tight with your arms so true.
The key to unlock tomorrow is reality.
I want to keep on smashing lies apart...

My eyes kind of drifted over the ED last time. When I was finishing this write-up, I happened to pause the credits briefly. When I looked up, Anthy was glaring at me, or just past me, over the prince's shoulder.

I may have involuntarily made a terrified sound.

It may have been a squeak.

(Edit: Typos and a split infinitive, GO ME.)

Last edited by Thlayli (01-24-2015 07:03:27 AM)

Hello there, Thlayli. It's all good and well but you do seem somewhat prejudiced against Saionji, don't you? And just because he hits women...

after all, she devoted herself completely to him while they were engaged. Isn't that her job?

The job she just claimed to enjoy?
Besides, isn't "it was just their job" argument always kind of creepy?

Thlayli wrote:

"If it cannot break its egg's shell, a chick will die without being born. We are the chick, the world is our egg. If we don't crack the world's shell, we will die without being born. Smash the world's shell. For the revolution of the world!"

It's actually a quote from Demian, a German novel from the early twentieth century that became popular in the youth counterculture of the '60s.

So... uebermenschen? Or just determinators in search of knowledge? Does revolution imply a great upheaval, or the motion of the planet which gives us days and nights?

Try "You can't tell me what to do, mom."

But this is Utena's story, so what if she does just leave?

Utena doesn't get into the metafiction play as much as, say, Princess Tutu, but it does have its share of moments like this.

Also, this has been a very monochrome anime so far, but the prince - his skintone is hardly out of place in Japan, but it's exactly the same as Anthy's. This is a somewhat shitty conjecture, for reasons, but is there a connection?

And think: where have we seen this prince before?

Last edited by Atropos (01-24-2015 06:35:21 AM)

Atropos wrote:

Try "You can't tell me what to do, mom."

Hah!

Utena doesn't get into the metafiction play as much as, say, Princess Tutu, but it does have its share of moments like this.

Princess Tutu is now on the list, thank you.

And think: where have we seen this prince before?

Oh, in the OP! He opens his eyes as the dueling stage is torn apart. Waking up, or coming to life. Hmm. Hmm.

malna wrote:

Ah, but of course you're right, I would have hoped my saying "And just because he hits women..." screamed sarcasm loud enough. Don't let my current forum rank fool you! Bash all you will, Saionji has been a character built to dislike - as of yet; he may or may not stay this way. I only meant to point out that... some things seemingly concerning him might not be as obvious as they would appear to be (oh my, avoiding spoilers can prove quite acrobatic).

Oh, gotcha! Sorry, I'm way too literal sometimes! But, y'know... my misunderstanding did make me wonder if I'd taken a shallow view of Saionji, and it was really useful for me to think about that. Plus, as you say, characters may or may not change over time. Thanks for dancing around the spoilers, it's really appreciated.

Edit: I definitely didn't think you were condoning domestic abuse or anything. I just thought you might be warning me I was missing something important because of revulsion for a character who commits it.

Edit for your edit:

malna wrote:

I only meant to point out that... there are many different angles to this, which none of them makes him any less of a jerk.

Oh yeah, absolutely, I got that - and thanks to that, I tried looking at his motivations, which I'd been a bit lazy about beforehand. So, thanks.

Last edited by Thlayli (01-24-2015 06:36:35 AM)

Yasha wrote:

I'm sorry, but I can't let this slide. The thought of anyone watching the damn stair sequence closely just in case of small changes makes me terrified. Trust me-- if there are changes, you will notice them. If you want some real-life background on why these scenes have been reused so far, I will be happy to tell you; otherwise I'll keep my yap shut.

You've saved me from serious eye strain. I'm curious, is it like Eva? Like, they became ominously aware of their budget, so explored thematic use of repetition and tableaux... something like that?

That's great, I find that kind of fine crafting really interesting - um, - am I doing that right?

Just so you know - and for anyone else who's watching along - I'm going to watch episode three shortly. I won't post about it until my views are more considered and less scattered then they have been for the last two posts, but if anyone wanted to refresh their memory, I guess now's the time.

Thlayli wrote:

Is a smiling rose a blooming rose? (For what it's worth, the title of Duel 1 was The Rose Bride.)

I've never been able to resist connecting the episode title to "for whom the bell tolls" from the famous John Donne meditation about "no man is an island," about the interconnectedness of humanity.  But that's just silly, since bells definitely aren't in this series.

They're playing a card game. No idea if the aim is to have as few or as many cards as possible. End of the World is apparently a 'him', not a 'they'.

I double-checked the Japanese audio, and their words are both gender- and number-neutral.  That's not surprising, since it seems from how they talk about them that the Student Council has never even met End of the World, if they even literally exist.  "Him" is the interpretation of the subber or dubber.

Looks like Touga won with two Jokers. Guess the object was to get rid of your cards last?

Blue's stopwatch says 00:16:42. The fucker's just toying with me.

Kunihiko Ikuhara wrote:

trolololololol

My eyes kind of drifted over the ED last time. When I was finishing this write-up, I happened to pause the credits briefly. When I looked up, Anthy was glaring at me, or just past me, over the prince's shoulder.

This is the only reason I like that ED.  To my taste, the song is the worst music in the series.   The lyrics are okay, though.

Atropos wrote:

It's actually a quote from Demian, a German novel from the early twentieth century that became popular in the youth counterculture of the '60s.

An adapted quote from Demian.  The original one is even better.  ("Who would be born must first destroy a world.")

If you didn't dislike Saionji right now, I'd be worried about you.   But it can't hurt to watch him, assuming he gets any more screen time.  We're already getting hints that some of these characters have more than one layer to them.  Won't change the fact that he hits women, though.

At times I wish I could reset my memory temporarily so that I'd be able to enjoy SKU and Eva for the first time *again*. But I'd like to able to regain my memories at will so that I could compare my reactions to the several 'first' times. Spoiler time: [But I'm afraid I'd become like Mikage at some point or another. Not good, no.]

I always thought of the Hemingway novel myself which was borrowed from Donne.

Thlayli wrote:

Utena doesn't get into the metafiction play as much as, say, Princess Tutu, but it does have its share of moments like this.

Princess Tutu is now on the list, thank you.

You will not regret it.

Tonight I shall watch episode 4 and possibly binge on a few more. I have all the feels for Mikki.

Thlayli wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

You will not regret it.

Tonight I shall watch episode 4 and possibly binge on a few more. I have all the feels for Mikki.

Recommended twice by clever people on a clever forum = essential. Before I vanish for the rest of the weekend, and seeing as I spy a name I don't recognize, can someone furnish me with the names of Orange and Blue from the OP/Student Council? I've met Nanami now, and I'm tired of just writing Orange/Blue...

Blue is Mikki and Orange is Juri.

EDIT: Miki Kaoru and Juri Arisugawa to be pedantic.

Last edited by YamPuff (01-24-2015 11:03:53 AM)

I'm rewatching Princess Tutu at the moment and falling in love with it all over again. So I recommend it as well.

'Hate'  [【果て] can also mean 'the limits'.

I could have sworn you did, during the December 21st 2012 livestream.

(Shit, was that really two years ago?)