ShatteredMirror wrote:

Jellineck wrote:

New proposed social theory: At any point in a SKU-related topic, the subject will degenerate into arguing about Shiori. Ad Shirorium.

Does this need to join my signature?

Everytime Shiori comes up, I am reminded of Godwin's Law, to be quite honest.

Ashnod wrote:

Doesn't a good portion of Shiori's narration in the Black Rose Saga admit just that...?
I was under the impression she did it specifically to hurt Juri and/or try to escape Juri's shadow, and later regretted not doing it for herself, instead of doing it to wound her friend.

From an interpretive standpoint, simply because Shiori admits that in the Black Rose arc (in the elevator when all the duellists are delving into their subconscious motives and unadmitted-even-to-themselves feelings) does not directly imply that hurting Juri was a conscious motive of Shiori's when the actual "stealing" took place. 

In point of fact, I believe it supports the idea that she did not consciously, at the time, do it to hurt Juri.  Just like Wakaba didn't consciously walk around disgruntled about being 'just another face in the crowd', etc.  When pressed, Shiori later admits that she knows that her reasons were tainted and Wakaba can admit that she is sometimes angry to stand unnoticed in Utena's shadow.

Hmm... I very much like the idea that she wasn't consciously trying to hurt Jury when the whole drama happened, and that it is the Black Rose ring which brought those motivations out. "Cruelly innocent" - I had long been confused by this remark from Jury, because I didn't see just how, precisely, Shiori could be innocent. I never liked her precisely because she was fairly incompetent at what she did. But if her manipulation is unconscious - and her consolation of Jury was actually not a last twist, but very much a real attempt at trying to make a friend feel better - this is a completely different cup of tea. I still dislike her incompetence, but, heck, she's more of a victim than Jury is. Jury's had some success at knowing her own will, Shiori is at the mercy of subconscious impulses.

It's interesting, however, that she looks very much like a creature that is conscious of what she does. Maybe this is because she is shown tied with Jury and Ruka - both accomplished manipulators, who at least try to hide that they may not understand what they're doing. But this doesn't seem enough. I'm not sure why, really - any ideas?

Last edited by Werekat (11-01-2007 06:04:01 AM)

Maybe the issue's in the translation. I can't remember the precise wording we had, but I seem to remember that it was somehow different. But even here, this seems to be an attempt to admit weakness rather than to attack Jury; the logic seems to be "I couldn't help it - I'm not at fault." What is the fault is not mentioned.

Anyway: I'm not saying Shiori's innocent. I'm saying she's not in control - this adds to her incompetence. But Jury, with her general dependence on reason, seems to let victims be victims, and tries her best not to add to the misery. It's a very peculiar kind of pity, and the fact that Jury's just a little bit above Shiori when dealing with her own emotions doesn't help the situation much.

As for manipulation: I see your point. It is very much possible that I chose the wrong word, because Jury utilizes her skill much more passively than most of the other manipulators in the series - mostly, in self-defense.

As far as I remember, there was a mention of the rather impressive intelligence network she has in the same episode where she scared the teacher stiff. I'll be the first to admit being frightening does not equal being informed (on the contrary, as I know first hand!), but there is often the matter that Jury knows what she needs to know, and, generally, she is the one who seems to lead the Council-outer world connection, dealing with teachers and all. It suits her to a tee: "It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it." Maybe this is a mistaken impression, but Jury seems to know most of what goes on in the school, though it is the menial stuff, mostly. She's the only one of the Council shown to be dealing with "mundane" issues - her student falling ill, as another example. You need a certain amount of social skill to do that.

She's the kind of manipulator that initially very honest people make. Her tactic consists of gathering information and then acting on it. Simple, and Really, no different than what Ruka does - except that Ruka uses this tactic much more ruthlessly, and to greater effect. Jury has never shown an ability to gain something from her peers through manipulation - but she does show a certain amount of resistance to their work. And, unlike most of the others, who know they're driven into a corner instinctively (like Sayonji), or even start to believe what is whispered into their ears (like Miki), Jury consciously knows that she's trapped, and is very angry about it. She admits to her losses, and at least starts on the whole "Know thyself" thing, perhaps, more than any other character.

I get the impression she is the kind of person that keeps mental files on people. And had she not been so subsumed by her own problems, I daresay we would have had the chance to see some social experiments on her part. She shows many a shrewd insight into the way people's minds work - she does not mistake innocence for wordliness (for lack of a better word), or vice versa. The innocent are innocent, the bastards are bastards - she sees it all quite clearly. But the fact that she can't change a thing seems to be the main thing driving Jury up the metaphorical wall.

So, to sum this all-too-long text up: Jury's good at seeing the webs of relationships - one half of what makes a good manipulator. The problem is that she also sees that what she wants does not get accomplished through pushing on those webs. Like so many people competent at sorting out side issues, she's an utter failure when it comes down to her own self. She knows she's pretty darn screwed, and doesn't know what to do with it, which hinders her from actively playing the game.

Or, as said before by someone, maybe I'm entirely too sleepy.

Ashnod wrote:

See...I just can't buy that she wasn't aware that her actions would cause pain. Even before the Black Rose saga, she has admitted:

shiori:  But I couldn't help but steal him from you.
shiori:  Did you know?
shiori:  Juri-san is in love with someone.
shiori:  But...
shiori:  ...it isn't you.
shiori:  So, I don't regret stealing him from you...
shiori:  ...because that's what I hoped for from my heart.

shiori:  You must hate me for being like this.

The thing is, how much of that can we be sure is fact? The Shiori who says she doesn't regret what she did is Juri's memories and/or imagination. The actual Shiori who shows up in Thorns of Death very clearly regrets her actions. Not that I'm absolving her of her actions, but there is an inconsistency there, and I don't think it's because Shiori is lying. When she's in Mikage's elevator she says that stealing the boy's affections made her feel more pathetic, so how could she not regret her actions? Likely it's Juri who's puttng those words in Shiori's mouth.

Either way, Shiori is innocent when it comes to Juri's actual feelings. She doesn't know in what way she has hurt Juri and continues to do so. Likewise, Juri says Utena is also cruelly innocent because she doesn't realize the source of Juri's pain either.

I don't think her letter specifically says she doesn't regret what she did? It doesn't make any sense with her (soon after) appearance in the series wishing to be Juri's friend once more. Further, the letter would seem to indicate that Shiori and the boy were still together, whereas they've already broken up by Thorns of Death. If the letter does say that Shiori doesn't regret her actions it must a lie, since she states otherwise to Mikage.

Ragnarok wrote:

I don't think her letter specifically says she doesn't regret what she did?

Maybe I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I'd always interpreted that letter was a defiance to hide her pain more. We all do the sort of things, cutting off noses to spite faces. By telling Juri she doesn't care that she might have hurt her, she's hurting Juri more, yes. Not because she neccessairily wants to hurt Juri, but because there's the sense of bravado, and boosting of the self confidence. She may not have succeded in bringing Juri down, but surely, by being as hard as Juri, Shiori has brought herself up? "You might think I care about you, but I did this horribly shitty thing to you, and I know it hurts, but I don't care." She does care; otherwise she wouldn't have bothered to say or write anything. The fact that she's trying to hurt her proves just how concerned she is with what Juri thinks of her. Obvously, she's still thinking in the third grade mindset -next, there'll be some throwing of frogs on the playground.

She says it all over the place, all the time. She wanted to hurt Juri, to bring her down to the level that she herself thought she was at. She spends so much time thinking about Juri she can't see the forest for the trees.

Ragnarok wrote:

I don't think her letter specifically says she doesn't regret what she did? It doesn't make any sense with her (soon after) appearance in the series wishing to be Juri's friend once more. Further, the letter would seem to indicate that Shiori and the boy were still together, whereas they've already broken up by Thorns of Death. If the letter does say that Shiori doesn't regret her actions it must a lie, since she states otherwise to Mikage.

shiori:  So, I don't regret stealing him from you...

That's from the Utena Translation Project, I believe. The US version said something like:

shiori: That's what I stole him from you, and I have absolutely no regrets about doing it.

Both versions say this, to the best of my knowledge.

I think this is actually Shiori being honest, as it is written at a time when she is not near Juri and feels victorious over her. Her words to Mikage in the elevator indicate, to me at least, that while she isn't regretful about actually doing it, she wishes she had taken him for her own happiness rather than to hurt Juri.

brian wrote:

Towards a General Theory of Shiori. (I'll be that would sound neat in Latin).

If X is in (love/lust/crush/obsession) with Y who does not reciprocate due to being (unwilling/unable/confused/afraid/having other priorities) fans will hate Y because they often personally remember the pain of loving an unresponsive someone to the point of hating them, but don't remember as acutely how difficult it can be to be Y.

Unless Y is a huge emo jerk who is just really mean because he can't deal with his own drama. Also, he has an old man voice. Also a bad haircut. Also, ass ugly clothes. Then he can be hated for who he is, not who he doesn't like. Yeah, I'm thinking of a specific Non-Utena character.  <edit>I'm kidding by the way, so if you like the character I am talking about, I'm sorry if that sounded unfair. It kind of is. Except the part about the clothes. I mean, really. You can't tell me those clothes aren't fugly. </edit>

brian wrote:

After all there are zillions of Love Poems addressed to frigid objects of desire and very few written from the viewpoint of aforesaid frigid objects.

That is a very good point.

Last edited by alexielnet (11-04-2007 10:09:21 PM)

alexielnet wrote:

brian wrote:

After all there are zillions of Love Poems addressed to frigid objects of desire and very few written from the viewpoint of aforesaid frigid objects.

That is a very good point.

It is, and a very interesting one.  I guess because being loved (and not returning it) is not as emotionally intense an experience as loving?  I can only think of one poem offhand that's clearly from the POV of a "frigid object of desire" -- "The Nymph's Reply," by Sir Walter Raleigh -- and that is specifically written as a response to Christopher Marlowe's much earlier "The Passionate Shepherd To His Love." 

The other poems I can think of that might fit are more abstract.  Robert Frost occasionally wrote from the POV of someone who didn't appreciate the "love" lavished on him by nature -- I'm thinking of poems like "The Most of It" -- but that isn't really what you meant, is it?  I'll post if I think of any more.

uhm... I'm a big Juri-fangirl (as most of you will know) and I dig Juri x Shiori as a coupling... because it's so... difficult.

I wouldn'T say that I hate Shiori. Without Juri by her side she would be just an empty character, like Juri would be empty without Shiori's poison, right?

Both characters have a dangerous symbiosis and well, Ruka seems to work out like a catalysator for them, but in the end they're connected.

that's why i also must admit that I didn't like Shiori that much in the movie, it explained some details but her character was just blown out of all proportions there. In the series she was simply more human.

damn... it's complicated to describe in second language *curses*

ok... what am I going to say right now... *huffs*

If you look at Shiori as person in general she has pretty much complexes and she's one of a many. Pretty invisible, if you ask me. She wouldn't be that intruiging, plotting, hurting, manipulating and desperated if she would be alone with herself. Well... maybe desperated and longing for some attention like most of us would do.

Juri as a person in general without Shiori would be declared as a... mary sue? She has everything, she's a master in everything, she's beautiful and such. Shiori gives her that trauma which makes Juri an interesting and visibly hurt character.

so... Better we got a person we love to hate than a person we hate to love...

nonsense I know. it's just difficult to translate what I want to say ;

Last edited by beautifulpanther (01-11-2008 04:27:19 PM)

when it comes to actresses... well, japanese Shiori sounds all whiney and with the time it gets annoying.

Her english voice... well, it's more alive if you ask me but it's a little too deep for my taste.

But the most ridiculous thing it that I love her german voice. it's in the right tone, surprisingly alive (you have to think about the fact that german synchs tend to speak VERY monotone and lame) and not too deep like in english edition.

maybe i get the chance to cut a sequence with german Shiori. DVD has a disgusting copy-protection and you get the clips without sound ;__;

Giovanna wrote:

As much as people enjoy Juri and Shiori as a subject of discussion though, would anyone want a relationship like that?

I get the impression that they want it. They probably had a relationship in the first place because it gave them security and they almost deliberately make each other miserable because they are trying to work out their own sense of selfhood by tormenting each other.

Just opinion but I think Shiori's English dub is one of the best in the series.

Last edited by brian (01-11-2008 08:43:30 PM)