I agree that she did become a prince.

A prince is pure virtue.

Innocence is not a virtue because it cannot be tested.

Courage is only a virtue once there is fear. Loyalty is only a virtue once there is temptation.

When Utena realized her faults, and STILL did what was right despite what it cost her, I believe she did become a prince. This is something that would be impossible if she had remained ignorant of her faults and continued to idealize herself.

Last edited by Dross (10-27-2007 11:51:36 PM)

Actually, there's a fair amount of Utena slander here. But when I think "evil," I think "intelligent," so I can't ever truly find her as such.

Dross wrote:

When Utena realized her faults, and STILL did what was right despite what it cost her, I believe she did become a prince. This is something that would be impossible if she had remained ignorant of her faults and continued to idealize herself.

My problem with this is...

(a) I think it's a pretty major point that the series explicitly rejects the Prince archetype as irrelevant and limiting.  It's still useful to use in conversations, especially from an archetypical/mythological angle.  But in the sense of Utena's original expressed quest to find/become a Prince, the whole point is ultimately rendered moot.  The real world isn't a world for Princes, because there aren't any pure Princesses or evil Witches.  Just people.

(2) Utena IS doing something noble.  And it certainly seems like she's doing it for Anthy more than for herself--in comparison to her attitude before.  She is shown without any mercy that her idealistic notions about Princes and about Anthy are FALSE and she continues to struggle out of concern for Anthy and a desire to free Anthy.  On the one hand, she's right.  Anthy does need and want help.  On the other hand, it's pretty arrogant to assume you know what's best for someone else--which Utena has been doing the whole time and seems to continue doing.  On the other other hand, is that what Utena's really doing when she struggles to the door?  She doesn't say "I still want to save you," she says "The only time I've ever been really happy is when I was with you."  She DOES say, "I came to save you", but she ALSO says, "I came to meet you" and "at last we meet."  But the most major thing about Utena that leaves me ambivalent regarding her motives are her very last words.  They're understandable in her position, but seem like a major step backwards, "I guess I couldn't become a Prince after all."  Well, she thinks she's failed, somewhat understandably.  But so does Akio.  Which means Utena doesn't really understand Anthy all that much better in the end than Akio does.  They are both still putting Anthy into molds that don't necessarily fit.  Now this could be a plot point because it's ultimately up to Anthy to decide who Anthy is and what Anthy is going to do (stay or go).  But it always comes to mind during these discussions.

She's not evil, though.  Just not perfect.  Which I wouldn't want, personally; I like that Utena still has faults at the end.

It really depends on how you define "evil." Under my own preferred categorization, a "good" person is willing to make personal sacrifices for others, while an "evil" person is willing to sacrifice others for personal gain. That's pretty much what our moral zeitgeist boils down to in the end.

All things considered, most of the SKU cast are just like real people: Shades of grey. They all have their own selfish motivations but they also show moments of genuine altruism from time to time.

The exceptions, of course, are the central symbolic characters. Dios is pure, selfless good. Of course, not even a godlike prince can last very long while fighting to save the world from itself. Akio is about as close to pure evil as you can get, but as others have mentioned, it's not his fault, and he still has some very "human" qualities. Anthy is a special case-- I'm really not sure if it was more her love or her selfishness that robbed the world of its Prince, so I'm on the fence about her.

And finally, we come to Utena. Is she evil? Hell, no. I'd go as far to say that she is the most noble, caring, selfless character in the series next to Dios himself. Is she naive and misguided? Sure. Does she butt into other people's business and try to fix their problems? Definitely. But she's always trying to help, and never intentionally harms anyone. And while it might come across as selfish for her to chase her rather unrealistic dream of becoming a prince, that's a shortsighted criticism in itself, in my opinion. In the SKU universe, a prince represents a noble savior and a paragon of virtue. I don't think you can possibly be considered"selfish" to want to become a selfless hero, even if you stumble along the way.

In short, Utena is a sweetheart and needs a hug.

That's my opinion, anyway. I could be wrong.