Juri is very mature for her age, whereas Shiori is immature, or rather, innocent and naive. There is a lot of emphasis on her innocence, but this is Utena, and so of course this term has a much deeper meaning.

Shiori's innocence relates to how she is innocent and unaware that Juri has feelings for her. "You are just like Ganymede, the boy of the constellation Aquarius. Innocent and pure. But such innocence can hurt other people. Be careful." This innocence is cruel to Juri, because it keeps her from realizing her feelings.

Then again, could anyone have ever really guessed Juri's feelings? The way that episode seven is set up is interesting, because it leads us to believe that Juri was in love with that boy, and that she hated Shiori for stealing him from her. The first time we watch that episode, until the moment we see who is really inside the locket, we're led to believe exactly what Shiori believed. Despite that, I still come across people who insult her for not realizing Juri's feelings for her.

I just re-watched ep. 7 and want to say a few words in praise of Shiori's courage. In that episode Juri meets Utena at night. She walks up to Utena and starts to almost caress her. For a moment Juri looks like a child-molester. Suddenly she violently attacks Utena.

Shiori would need a fair amount of physical courage to "steal the boyfriend" of a volatile person like that  -- who can terrify teachers with a glare.

Many episodes later, when Shiori has hit rock bottom, Juri visits her, but she turns Juri away even though she has been utterly humiliated. Shiori is not without pride or courage.

Last edited by brian (11-22-2006 08:16:09 PM)

I'm kind of with Nessy on this one. We don't really know much about the younger Juri but she seemed much more mild and idealistic - it was the pain caused by the break with Shiori that really seems to define her personality since she's built herself around trying to bury the pain in activity after activity. As for her being a child molester, she's only two years older than Utena...

The setup for episode 7 is pretty much set up to make it look like Juri was in love with the nameless boy - at least, it appears to be trying to convey that message. I saw it for what it was, but I probably wouldn't have if I'd gone in without any background knowledge of who Juri was as a character.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I'm kind of with Nessy on this one. We don't really know much about the younger Juri but she seemed much more mild and idealistic - it was the pain caused by the break with Shiori that really seems to define her personality since she's built herself around trying to bury the pain in activity after activity.

I agree, but I think Shiori was at least partially aware later on that Ruka might fall into the range of 'not to be fucked around with', given his closeness to Juri right from the outset. (Besides she must have known who Ruka was if she was around Juri that much before...)

Ultimately I don't think she'd have behaved any differently given how volatile the Juri we know is. Shiori seemed to be very, very well aware of how Juri treated her differently than everyone else. She didn't quite grasp why, but I think she knew she could cut Juri any which way she liked and Juri would only take it.

This is suddenly reminding me to watch more Brother, Dear Brother.

I think that Juri was always solemn, mature, and somewhat expressionless. Even in scenes that show Shiori and Juri in their friendship years, with no visible rifts, she shows little enthusiasm or energetic youthfulness. She's composed. When the boy gives her a compliment, she smiles and says: Thank you', but it's not a 'Thank you!' like Utena would make. It's quiet and reserved. I don't believe she was ever particularly trusting or able to open herself to others, hence Shiori's comment about believing in miracles so that her feelings would reach others. she must have been imposing and aggressive even as a child, because Shiori also mentione that she was strong, cool, and always protected her. I think the qualities that were already there were honed, so to speak: sharpened and given a bitter edge.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

You know, the typical teenage drama would have had Shiori falling for Juri and having her feelings not returned, not the other way around.

True. But since when is anything in Utena typical?

Last edited by dollface (12-07-2009 05:59:05 PM)

One thing I've always thought about , even if Shiori were to say "I Love you Juri, be with me!" ..Juri could at this point be so accustomed to her own sadness that she would be malcontent and it might not make a difference anyway.

I just think that Shiori as others have said) is your typical teenage girl : innocent to a fault and self-absorbed to a fault. As teenagers you think the world is yours for the taking - rarely do they give as so much an after thought that for a second it's not about them and what they want (or expect).

I think probably the best insight as to what's going on in Shiori's head comes from her session in Mikage's elevator. Where most of the black rose duelists start with a single subject and become more and more vehement about it Shiori on the other hand keeps on waving wildly back and forth and contradicting herself. She's always hated Juri... no, Juri was her best friend but she knew that the only reason she ever hung around with her was that Juri secretly pitied her so she'd show her she wasn't someone to be pitied!... only running off with her best friend's supposed boyfriend made her feel even more worthless about herself and... but now she knows she's won because she was the person that Juri secretly loved all along!... No! How could Juri possibly look at her that?!...

Shiori's problems are that she doesn't know what she really wants, her self image is basically "worthless", and that she actually does have a conscience. She'd rather be hated than pitied so she tries to hurt Juri because if she can hurt Juri that means she's on the same level as her, right? Only she has enough of a conscience that her efforts to drag Juri down end up making her feel even worse about herself (Remember that Shiori didn't even find out that Juri never loved him until after she'd returned to Ohtori).

Likewise, Ruka's really just Shiori trying Plan A one more time after she sees Juri and Ruka talking and decides that "Okay, this must really be the guy". I don't think Shiori ever really loved Ruka, being with him was simply a way for her to elevate herself up to Juri's level. Juri's attempt to try and warn her about Ruka simply reinforces how valuable he must really be to her, even during their date she's watching Juri watching her out of the corner of her eye, and when Ruka tosses her aside without the faintest bit of regret (he tells her that he was lying to her from the very beginning and compliments her on her own acting) her entire world goes to hell. Especially when Juri turns up again to pity her and let her step back into her shadow.

Like with her reactions to finding out the truth about Juri's locket in the elevator. At one moment she's smugly purring about "All this time Juri was looking longingly at me from a distance? That's the real Juri? How pitiful" to "How could she possibly look at me like that?". I don't think it was homophobic shock (She certainly doesn't have any problem with using her knowledge of Juri's love to torment her after she's gotten her black rose) so much as it was shock that Juri could be in love with _her_.

On the other hand, I do think too many people give Juri a free pass here. She fixates on Shiori's "believe in a miracle and they'll know how you feel" words, investing them with far more meaning than they could have ever possibly been intended to have, and her miracle isn't just for Shiori to feel the same way she does about her but for her to have the courage she doesn't and to actually _say something_ about it.

So... yeah. In case you haven't guessed, the Shiori-Juri-Ruka love triangle is one of my favorite threads in the series.

Great posting Ran. Like others, I wonder if Shiori could have done anything that would have truly satisfied Juri's desires. I suspect that even if she had tried, their relationship would have ended up like Saionji/Anthy or Akio/Anthy.
I also wonder why Shiori says, "Why do you look at me like that?"
a. She is disgusted by Juri's orientation, but that seems unlikely here (although that is implied in the movie).
b. She is disgusted at being Juri's Rose Bride.
c. She is disgusted at being anyone's Rose Bride.
d. She is disgusted at not being a Rose Bride. (Misleading job description)
e. Juri looks at her with condescension.
f. Juri makes her feel like a witch and she is tired of the guilt.
g. Juri totally hides her feelings, and she is fed up with the mask.

It may well be that Shiori herself does not really know.

Wait, I must nitpick! Nanami looked into her reflection as well! *flees*

No, but she has looked at her reflection at some point in the series. I might have misread her comment as 'no one but Shiori and Utena look at their reflections in the entirety of the series' rather than 'no one but Utena and Shiori look at their reflections in Mikage's elevator', but to be fair, I don't count movie incarnations in a series discussion.

Actually I always looked at that scene as Akio paying homage to Mikage he does this subtly twice. Once by using his elevator and by using the classroom duel setting. This may be an awkward show of thanks to Mikage. Or as the essay may have just been a way to Utena, she's going to die. But the elevator, was a room of convincing and letting go of feelings, though he didn't keep the illusion up long.