So I guess that settles what the movie script actually says, Aelanie.

What a childish, petulant thing to say. The movie script is "actually" in Japanese, and both renditions are perfectly legitimate and nearly identical translations. If I really wanted to quibble, I could point out that the Central Park Media DVD translation was overseen by Ikuhara himself, but even I think it's going too far to suggest that makes its English translation set in stone as the only right and correct one. Please don't pretend yours is either. The fact you felt a need to go hunt down the scene and screencap it to prove such an erroneous point is stunning, and a very shallow use of its beauty.

Also, there's no ground for me to defend my interpretation as fact, any more than there is for you to defend yours. In this particular case, we are both expressing our differing opinions on the show's personal meaning to us. I never presented them here as otherwise. However, given the above, it's clear no reasoning of mine could ever satisfy you in any case.

It's sad to see you carrying your personal grudge against me to such extremes. I was actually trying to help you out by posting the relevant material. What followed were merely my own thoughts on the scene, not an attack on yours. So please find a way to drop your vendetta against me.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-04-2012 07:09:26 PM)

Ashnod, I know and understand you're trying to help, and I thank you dearly.

I've talked with shutin and Aelanie about this episode.  We've said a lot that doesn't need repeating, but it's important to shutin that the forum know that as far as he's concerned, there is no vendetta between him and Aelanie.  I've reviewed other posts where they've had arguments, and I think that's fair; what we have here has to do with poor communication and often poor judgment by both parties, but I don't see any evidence of a personal grudge.  That said, I've made it very clear to both of them that personal attacks are off limits.

rhyaniwyn wrote:
Blame is someone from outside pointing the finger at you.  It isn't the same thing as responsibility or guilt.

rhyaniwyn, you made a very nice point here by clarifying the definitions between blame and responsibility/guilt.  Yes, these should indeed be different things.

While Anthy's crimes are largely alluded to Akio being mastermind and her being a willing (at times eager) accomplice, even in the real world, crime accomplices will be held accountable and charged in any law-defined countries.   She is guilty of many crimes by human-justice-understanding, and should have responsibility to compensate those she had hurt - which she was not shown doing in the TV series.

But...what crimes did Anthy commit that she didn't bear the brunt of?

That is one tricky equation to calculate right.  As the Rose Bride, Anthy is shown to be continuously stabbed by the Swords of Hate (the million that rushed Utena in ep 39) - yet that does not actually debilitate her body or keep her from continuing to have the ability to travel around, interact with others. So, the swords' effects are much like mental/phantom pains that do not go away and is corrosive to the psyche.

The people she hurt, on the other hand, often times end up phyically crippled (final duel Utena, Post apple Kanae, etc) or just plain dead (if she actually had a hand in the death of 100 boys); they don't get to walk/talk freely like Anthy did under the Swords, and ends up worse off than the immortal by their human physical limitations.  Is that fair weighted karma at work there?  I do not believe so.

Anthy is definitely guilty of many crimes by human justice standards, and should have responsibility to compensate those she unjustly hurt (especially Kanae and Wakaba, whom she had no grounds to hurt, no matter how much she feels like she herself suffers); she is shown doing little/nil such compensation to the many non-Utena characters she's been cruelly hurting throughout  the TV series (exiting Ohtori by herself, and still leaving the entire cast vulnerable to Akio's future manipulation).

The canon also alludes to the fact that Akio and Anthy are both 1000s years old, and they are, in fact, existent during the distant Nemuro Research Era (Akio showing up to prompt Mikage kill the 100 boys, Anthy immediately taking over afterwards to fake as Mamiya). 

Now, let's look at Anthy's "crimes", which completely overlaps with Akio's crimes as the two too often move as one:

written in canon:
- manipulating Utena through hurtful events and the violent backstabbing (Utena forgives her in the end)
- manipulating Saionji and the rest of the SC (one can argue that Touga's included and deserves it too)
- the many "humorous nanami eps" (though nanami is deserving of a lot of it)
- mastermind behind EVERYTHING in the present Black Rose Arc
  (including antagonizing non-guilty Kanae via mindgame, then violently rose-stabbling her as "Mamiya"
  do the same to non-guilty Wakaba,
  and basically driving all BR duelists into emotional despair then force stabbing them,
  screws her puppet Mikage (deserving of screwing?) over) 
- manipulating Miki's Dad to hurt/manipulate the twins
- force feeding "apple" to non-guiltyKanae together with Akio - likely resulting in Kanae's absence in ep 39 ending

"maybe" aka from the logical assumption that Akio do many things through Anthy, but these are still non-hard-factual and is speculation only:
- has a hand in death of 100 boys
- responsible for Utena's parents' "timely" accident
- having killed/ruined innumerable people throughout the 1000s years she act together with Akio

Simply put, if the thread title is changed to "How Guilty is Anthy of the Many Characters' Sufferings In SKU?", my answer will be " A little less than but almost equal to Akio's Guilt".  Utena can only forgive Anthy for the wrongs Anthy did to her:  what damaging things Anthy did to others, Anthy still is guilty of even post-revolution.

I'll respectfully disagree with Ashnod on that to this extent:  you can manipulate others by telling the truth.  It doesn't make the truth any less the truth if you have more than one reason for telling it.

I will also respectfully point out that truths, especially half-truths, when told in a way that the teller knows will lead to the listener being harmed, still make the teller guilty of malice/ill-will towards another.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Anthy's lived her whole life as a scapegoat who still managed to find a way, an ugly way, to empower herself. 

I'm not big on blame.  Blame is someone from outside pointing the finger at you.  It isn't the same thing as responsibility or guilt.  How much is Anthy responsible for her own actions?  100%.  How guilty should she feel?  Some guilty.  Maybe a lot.

...

The conversation with Utena on the balcony is so, so fundamentally important, so wholly representative of Anthy's internal conflict.  I'll respectfully disagree with Ashnod on that to this extent:  you can manipulate others by telling the truth.  It doesn't make the truth any less the truth if you have more than one reason for telling it.

If the question is "how much responsibility does Anthy bear for her actions?" then the answer is almost 100%. I don't see Anthy as a victim as much as many people do, unless it is a victim of the choices she made and having to suffer for those choices. I agree with you  on this.

I'll concede that is absolutely possible Anthy is telling Utena the truth on the balcony. She might even feel the guilt of her actions at that moment, and everything about the scene might be as honest as Anthy is capable of being. I still feel, regardless of the truth or the authenticity of it, that this moment is nonetheless calculated to get the reaction out of Utena that Anthy needs. It's okay that we disagree on it. Just different interpretations.

The endings of both films seem very similar to me except that the movie clears up the question of whether Anthy finds Utena. I think Aelanie is right about the TV ending being very positive and uplifting and romantic. Just for argument's sake think of it as two real people in the real world running off to make new lives. Immigrants huddling in steerage; escaped slaves trudging into Canada up a muddy road while the rain pelts them; starving students who can't afford a decent car. A Happy Ending for all that though not a fairy tale ending. Not certainty, not a guarantee of safety or success. No garden awaits them because THEY will plant the garden. Perhaps I should re-phrase it not as a Happy Ending but a Happy Ongoing.

Back to the major theme of this thread, Eric Hoffer once said that power corrupts but powerlessness also corrupts. Even Anthy herself probably would not be able to make a realistic assessment of her blame. Part of her liberation consists in deciding not to try.

Last edited by brian (09-06-2012 12:57:57 PM)

I think Anthy's guilt is part of the reason it takes her so long to break free of her hell, and as long as she stays there she'll be stuck in a vicious cycle where she's hurt and she in turn hurts others. Meeting someone willing to forgive her... yeah.

We never see her reuinited with Utena in the series, but it's certainly a hopeful ending.

Edit: Didn't see rhyaniwyn's message before clicking send.

Last edited by Lurv (09-06-2012 01:41:50 PM)

rhyaniwyn wrote:
But I also always thought it was interesting how screwed up, broken down, and ugly the Outside World looked in the movie. The sky was beautiful but it was otherwise a wasteland.  I had never noticed the dead trees in the background of the TV ending and I think they have to be analogous (not to conflate the two).  A deliberate nod to the fact that the Outside World isn't necessarily a happy place, but at least it offers a life you choose for yourself.

Lurv wrote:
We never see her reuinited with Utena in the series, but it's certainly a hopeful ending.

I wrote:
Grey skies/ barren land seem to me to allude to the fact that post show (I'll stick to just the TV series here), the girls will face lots of imperfect things/hardships on their journey there.  And what I said in my post:

   

there is definitely still gonna be a lot of issues/difficulties/problems BOTH Utena and Anthy need to overcome (Utena needs to relax and becoming just a good person, and not some Dios wannabe who try and carry eveyrone elses problems onto her lone back;  Anthy NEEDS to pay back and help those many people she hurt in the past before she can truly move forward into new life with UTena).  Considering the many issues both women have, it really might take like at least 10 years for the duo to get themselves completely sorted out and find a mutually happy/at peace place in life, thus why the 10 years reunion dialogue.

What'd you know?  After the whole debate, it seems like all three of us are at least arriving at non-contradictory conclusions regarding what TV SKU ending's is probably like (though we differ on opinions of whether post-series Anthy remains guilty of what she did to the many supporting chars in the series).

rhyaniwyn wrote:
Her sense of guilt is expressed in every single thing she does.  It's precisely what perpetuates her situation.  She wouldn't be the Rose Bride if she didn't feel guilty.

You know . . . instead of feeling guilt towards her hurting non-Akio characters, it seems to me that Anthy remained the Rose Bride for so long because she resigns herself to the role out of fear of the hard battles she'll need to fight to break away.

Think of a junk-food addict who's already obese to the point of unhealthiness (I've been there as an overweight child) - it's not feeling guilt over eating junk food that keeps him a junk-food addict, but rather, the fear of the pains of dieting (and by that I mean healthy eating, not starvation) and exercising he'd have to endure to get fit, plus the fear of the heavy disappointment he'd suffer should he diet and exercise and still remain bese, that keeps him a junk-food addict.  I would not be able to get out of it if not for getting enrolled in a school with a semi-vigorous gym class - once I was forced into exercising, I see myself capable of slimming down, I then get the motivation to stay off junk food for cereals and greens and steamed/water-boiled lean meat/fish, and thus the deadweight came off and stayed off up to now - the seeing of hope did the trick for me, much like how I imagined the hope Utena makes Anthy see throughout the series allows her to finally break free from Ohtori.

The Rose Bride thing really do seem similar to unhealthy obesity from my POV - more than any guilt, it is a "fearful resignation to hopelessness" that locks a person into that role/situation - only that the Rose Bride hurts many others along with just herself, and there's no apparent move on Anthy's part to compensate those others she hurt.

Lurv wrote:
guilt is a big part of it.

While I do feel Anthy is guilty of her actions, I see her feeling hopelessness (where the whole issue is all about only her), guilt towards Akio (and a tiny bit towards Mikage and Utena) that prompts her (at least want to) to do things to aid them,  then feeling almost no guilt towards Kanae, Wakaba and God knows how many others, as she did nothing to aid/compensate them for the things she made them suffer through, not even post revolution.  I know Rhy already said that the swords of hate evens it out . . . but does it?  How does Anthy getting punished compensate Kanael and Co in any way? 

Like, if a person has maimed someone (like how Anthy has likely irrepairably hurt Kanae, whom we never see again post ep 32), on top of doing time for it, if she does feel sorry for her actions, would she not try approach, contact the maimed person to at least offer proper apology?  She should not just go: "Hey, I'm doing time already, so what else do you want me to do/say?  I'm even more of a victim than you anyway!  Can't you see how I'm getting punished?"  Refusing to right one's wrongs is defensiveness at work, not guilty-feelings.

Anthy Rose Bride strikes me as feeling sorry for herself, then sorry for what she did to Akio (I don't understand it, but she feels this way), then tiny bit sorry for what she did to Mikage/Utena (easily outweighted by "Akio guilt" until last 5 min of the show), and think almost nothing of her hurting other characters.

rhyaniwyn, first off, allow me to applaud you for your fantastically detailed post in demonstrating how Anthy has indeed displayed all the traits of a victim of long-time trauma and abuse.

You wrote:
The victim gets trapped into a self-image of victimization.  Self-victimisation is the fabrication of victimhood for a variety of reasons such to justify abuse of others, to manipulate others, a coping strategy, or attention seeking.

I think this pretty much covers it: Anthy copes with her pain by using it to justify her hurting others.  This also coincides with what I've written before:

While I do feel Anthy is guilty of her actions, I see her feeling hopelessness (where the whole issue is all about only her), guilt towards Akio (and a tiny bit towards Mikage and Utena) that prompts her (at least want to) to do things to aid them,  then feeling almost no guilt towards Kanae, Wakaba and God knows how many others, as she did nothing to aid/compensate them for the things she made them suffer through, not even post revolution.

Such a victim, while worthy of empathy, is a hazard to those around her. In the case of Anthy, a 1000s yr old demi-goddess projecting the image of those ancient victimizers (the Swords of Hate Wielders) upon modern day children aged 13-18, to corrupt/coerce/force them all towards being the worst possible people they could possibly be, and to have them scarred by highly traumatic youth experiences . . .   her actions there are monstrous to say the least.

Edited to add:
Victim and victimizer, all in one; that was pre-revolution Anthy.

can't make it so she didn't manipulate so many people any more than she could be a person who never suffered herself.

Anthy still can warn the remaining cast of the dangers of continuing to stay in Ohtori (like she had warned Utena on that rooftop), and if not that, at least offer them a simple apology (which doesn't even have to be anything fancy like what she did with Utena on that rooftop, just something genuine would be enough).  The way she did neither of the above prior to watzing off say something about the kind of self-involved, self-centered person Anthy still is freshly post-revolution. 

Not a happy ending where the bad guys all get exactly what they deserve, all the innocent victims are fully re-compensated, and all the good guys are rewarded.  There are victims, all around, there is moral debt unpaid.

On this, we can agree.  The happy ending is one where Anthy gets a chance at ditching her evil brother's control - one where she hasn't changed completely (at least, not yet, at the time of the show's ending), but just enough to hopefully move into a more hopeful future for herself.   That said, the long time traumatic past appears to be keeping post-revolution Anthy from having true empathy towards those that do not impress her (i.e. non dios, non utena, non mikage); to her, unimpressive people the likes of Kanae and Wakaba still remain as objects that she can use (for projections, for pawn-purpose) and destroy in monstrous manners if doing so serve her purpose.

An example: It seems to me that should post-show Anthy feel like hurting certain individuals will benefit Utena in some way, she'd do it regardless of how wrong it is to do so.

Perhaps it really will take Anthy years to mature into someone capable of breaking out of her victimhood "coffin" such that she would feel that human impulse to make amends when she does wrongs to others, instead of using her own pains to continue and justify her own wrong doings - thus why the ten year reunion thing in the series; only then can she truly be human enough to have a chance of building a solid relationship with someone (hopefully, it's still gonna be Utena then).   

Edited to add:

You wrote:
I really...  Yes and no.  "Fearful resignation to hopelessness" is indeed evocative.  But that's because being the Rose Bride is a lot more like being abused than it is like weighing more than you'd prefer.

Oh, "weighting more than you'd prefer" is a serious (health and otherwise) issue to the sufferer, those concerned for them, the people around them (especially on narrow-seating flights), and their country's medical system (as the person weights on it with their many health problems).  I pick this as an example because in both cases (being obese/ being rose bride), the "victims" are often focused upon only their own point of view and their own sufferings, and are often less-than-concerned about the sufferings of those whom their actions negatively affected; that, and they both got elements of self-damaging going on.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-15-2012 10:21:26 AM)

I think we can all agree on the fact that Utena is not a real life detective or court drama where all guilty parties shall be justly punished at the end (ha, it doesn't always happen in reality). While I agree that Anthy isn't as innocent as a typical Disney princess, she isn't as evil and malicious as some here have accused her to be. Did we forget about Akio here? He is the one pushing her to help him carry out his evil plans. The important thing is Anthy has no intent to cause harm to anyone if Akio didn't instruct her to do so in the first place. This doesn't mean she isn't responsible for her deeds, but it also doesn't automatically turn her into a malicious figure.

The TV show doesn't show what events occur between the time immediately after the final battle and Anthy saying goodbye to Akio for good. Who can say for sure that Anthy hasn't meet up with the other characters during that time and tell them about her plan of leaving and that they should do the same if they wish (or whatever you wish she should say)? I personally don't think they need Anthy's aid since the last episode shows their lives returning to normality without further interference from Akio (who is busy setting up the next game, and I doubt he'd select the same group of people as duelists). I don't believe they are really so helpless that they cannot leave Ohtori if they wish. As for compensation, do they really deserve any in the first place (with the exception of Miki perhaps)? Throughout the series, has any one of them showed any genuine kindness and respect toward Anthy as a fellow human being (with the exception of Miki and Wakaba, they are not hostile toward Anthy since the former has a crush on her, and the latter tolerates Anthy due to Utena)? Which one of the duelists didn't enter the game with selfish reason? They are all so self-involved and self-centered, entirely preoccupied with their own problems that none of them is able nor willing to extend a helping hand to Anthy (given how she behaves as the rose bride, if encounters in real life, such person is in dire need of psychiatric counseling). Even Utena admits in episode 38 that she too got carried away with playing Anthy's protector that she has failed to notice Anthy's pains. There's no saintly figure in Utena, nobody is blameless and everyone's tainted. They are have personality faults that has caused harms to those around them. All is guilty for all the shit that has happened in the series.

So is it fair that only Anthy is shown to be the only person walking away toward a better future/happy ending? Not really, but that's because she is one of the main protagonists of the anime series. Therefore she is deemed special and the story's focus is on her, and not others. It's exactly what Wakaba is so pissed about in episode 20. I am sure if Ikuhara wanted to pair up Wakaba with Utena instead, then the entire show will head off to a completely different direction (imagine instead of spinning roses, the show would be filled with spinning onions ), and Anthy would be portrayed as nothing more than a wacky character not unlike one of Nanami's minions.

The way I see Anthy is that she is like one of the gods and goddesses of ancient Greek mythology, full of human follies, but they don't diminish her magnificence one bit.

Last edited by Itsuke (01-10-2013 03:24:07 AM)

Lurv wrote: Besides that, I agree that Anthy isn't obligated to compensate the duelists as they are just as much at fault for what happened to them.

Now this reminds me of what those bank financial advisers say of the clients to whom they've sold Lehman Brothers Investment Products pre 2007: 6% interest in this day and age, what're they thinking?  Never mind that their clients are lay persons who have no way of knowing/understanding the actual content of the crap they got convinced/coerced to buy, it's their fault cause they are "greedy".

Is Kanae, who tried being nice to Anthy for Akio but got endless passive aggressive antagonizing in return, deserving of the hell Anthy put her through?  Is Wakaba, who tries tolerating Anthy for Utena, deserving of the intentional trauma inflicted?  Is Tsuwabuki, just a child, deserving of the prompt-to-murder stunt Anthy-Mamiya prompts Mikage to put him through?

If Anthy, who listens to Akio's "instructions" to hurt people all for fulfilling her selfish wish of resurrecting Dios, is non-malicious in her conduct, then Mikage is downright "saintly" - he thought he was on a race against time to save Mamiya when he killed 100 boys AND made numerable black rose duelists, after all.

Is Anthy a villain beyond possibility of redemption?  Of course not.  But then again, no one is in SKU.  So let's not pretend that she is less of a villain than say, Akio.  And lets not justify her horrid acts by trampling upon the character rights of her hapless victims.  The difference in the siblings' "endings" lies in one factor that has nothing to do with their own individual strengths/failings, and that is Utena.

Basically, Akio and Anthy are the two heads of that same dragon that feeds on flawed humans (ie. everyone), with both including friends, women, and children as part of their regular diet. 

Anthy met recklessly accepting Utena who got to know her ("we finally meet"), and sees beyond her damsel/witch facade, who gets backstabbed at the end and still insists on giving unconditional love, thus got to detach from the dragon and be her own person. 

Akio never gets offered the same by anyone - not even Anthy, who only wanna use him as tool ressurect the Dios/Prince she loves.  Utena never "meet" Akio - she only sees him as a desirably worldly, princely object (one for whom she'd knowingly hurt Kanae over).  Never once does she see him as person she can truly relax against, joke with, offer advice to, scold, share soulmate bondings (all of which she does with Anthy) . . . she is not interested in truly seeing the real Akio, period.  There were all sorts of warning signals (red cars, playboyish ways) Utena sees, but forciby ignores about Akio throughout her knowing him - not out of love, but out of a desire to be deluded by a pleasurable dream.  Thus when Akio shattered the prince dream and forced her to face the facts that he's the ends of the world, she turned against him emotionally.  Utena accepts Anthy even after the EP39 back-stab because she sees and knows the witch as a person:  Akio, only a thing to which Utena give conditional nicety towards, never got his heart opened, thus remained a dragon past the point of Utena's exit and SKU's ending.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (01-10-2013 10:53:59 AM)