I've been a fan of Mark for a loooooong time now (although I never really participated in the comment section, but perhaps I should start doing so...), and so I am also really excited that he's doing Utena! His reactions to it and opinions about it will no doubt be very interesting, I think.

@Atropos, well, you've sparked my curiosity; how come?

Oh, well, that makes sense, and his format is definitely very... blog-ish. I personally really like Mark's more introspective or even anecdotal posts, but I can definitely see why people wouldn't, you know?

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

So… unless something's changed (and last time I read the commenting protocols, it really, really hasn't) the Mark Reads comment sections are very much like the worst parts of tumblr, except occasionally passive-aggressive instead of aggressive-aggressive.  And Mark… Mark isn't just encouraging this culture, he's enforcing it.

Now I'm curious. He sounds like a very strong cult of internets celebrity sort, and there's nothing wrong with that. To be honest I've strongly avoided making myself a presence of that sort on the internet, since I'd just draw nothing but ire and possibly lose my license for saying anti-nursey things.

Is he a foot in the mouth sort, though? I think a lot of the time people backtrack into being kind of passive aggressive douchebags when they're misinterpreted. If you're going to be a demon, play the part, so to speak.

I've only been a fan of the site for a couple years, so I managed to miss the big meltdowns as far as I'm aware.
It's true that Mark is hyper-aware of experience/authenticity when it comes to potentially triggering or controversial issues, although in my personal experience he's always followed an "I don't feel qualified to say something" with a "if you feel qualified please feel free to discuss it in comments". I find it to be a really safe and comfortable community in the sense that I feel as long as I'm careful in how I speak, others will also take care in replying to me, even if I bring up things that are difficult and upsetting for me personally. I can see how the strict anti-trigger rules - which are definitely chosen and enforced by Mark and a few mods, and not subject to huge debate - can be a deal-breaker for those who want more free discussion of the sort IRG offers. However, I think it has its place on the internet as a safe haven for people who want to connect emotionally to TV and literature, to bring up the wonderful and horrible personal associations that media can bring up, and often just have ridiculous coded conversation about how little Mark is prepared for what he's about to watch, all while knowing that if someone was to show up and try to troll/harass the hell out of the community as happens in so many popular forums, the mods would do everything they could to get that shit out within a day or two.
I don't know if the community has gotten better or not, but I do remember a situation at the beginning of Mark Watches Supernatural a couple months ago where someone got really upset because they felt there was a lot of fan-bashing and judgement going on and one comment thread was escalating quickly. I was worried the person would just get banned (since the people they were arguing with were long-time commenters) but the mods and Mark really stepped up and talked out the issue so (I think) everyone understood each other better. That was actually one of the incidents that made me feel good about being part of the community.
As I said before, though, it's definitely a YMMV kind of place, since it's based around making things comfortable for the most easily triggered rather than the least, but for me Mark's reactions, his insight into the media he watches, the way he sometimes points out things I've never seen before on a show I've seen a million times, and even those personal stories are all what keep bringing me back to the site for more. That's really the point of it, in my opinion.

ETA: I still don't feel like I've done a very good job of explaining my experience with the site/community, but one point I should have made is that drama or attack of any sort have been very thin on the ground. Almost all the comment threads I've lurked or participated in have been solely about enjoying a particular series. Not to say anyone else's experiences to the contrary are false, I 100% believe them. It may just not be the common thing nowadays, or I may be picking the right series

Last edited by Pratyeka (04-11-2014 11:11:20 PM)

Okay, sorry, I lied.  I'm just going to take the chance (as I really should have done in the first place) to try to be communicate more clearly what exactly I don't like about Mark Does Things and why.

Pratyeka, I think you're right on identifying the goal behind the policies as a means of prioritizing Mark's comment sections as "safe spaces," and while I disagree that this is the best way to go about building a strong community, I can respect that intent.  My respect erodes somewhat in the face of that intent being focused on interpreting media, because I think what you identify as "free discussion" is absolutely essential to approaching media in a socially responsible way, and the head nods to "feel free to discuss this in the comments if you feel qualified" are rendered somewhat disingenuous both by the qualifier (you will be judged on your qualifications to talk about a subject, so it's really better to keep quiet unless you have your Validated Identity License on hand) and by the stated goal of creating a "safe space." (if your experience was traumatic, it might be considered triggering, so watch out)  Generally, it creates a culture of silence which is very much not in service to what I interpret to be the goal of social justice.  But that, for the most part, is a matter of "Well, it's not how I would do things."

What I find unforgivable was the way that these ends were accomplished while I was there.  See, there's a reason that the rules at IRG were what caused me to join the forum, and it boils down to this:

The Most Glorious Set of Rules and Guidelines I Have Ever Seen on the Internet wrote:

If none of these work, can you trot out your wounded dignity in front of 700 people?  Well, actually, no, you can't.  That would pressure the other person -- and everyone listening -- to stop contributing or run their posts through your filters before posting.  When we're all trying to pass through 700 people's filters, the forum asphyxiates.  (Have you ever tried to breathe through 700 layers of cloth? )  Instead, it's best to accept that when you interact with people with different backgrounds and expectations, sometimes you get offended. It is your personal responsibility to deal with it in a mature and reasonable manner, the same way it is in real life.

Have you ever been subject to that act of having someone "trot out their wounded dignity" because of some perceived slight you've offered them, when you had no intent of doing so?  And then watched as the rest of the community, including those with the only authority in the situation, descended on you like a pack of wild dogs to support that accusation?  All in public?  Have you ever seen it happen, in any forum, and then watched as the accused was banned, without any recourse?  This is the sort of thing I witnessed in the worst cases of the Mark Reads comment meltdowns, and it was horrible, it was horrible to watch, it was horrible to be subjected to, and I never never want to go back to that.

And to be honest, what you've described with recent events sounds like a retread of this pattern: one person spoke up against the grain, a whole group of people with power in the situation (having earned status as "long-time commenters") objected publicly to that expression, and in the end, they were rewarded by being given a voice in the ensuing (still public!) resolution, thus validating the tactic of enforced consensus, when they should have been told off behind the scenes, or even banned for the use of that tactic.  It sounds like it was done more elegantly than the situations I witnessed, (what with a furthering of understanding and all) but doing a horrible thing elegantly only excuses it if they make a television show about it.  (Looking at you, Hannibal.)

Uh, so I'm gonna call that Why I Don't Follow Mark, Part I: High Costs.  Stay tuned for Part II: Low Benefits, later!

I'd like to continue to participate in this discussion representing someone who enjoys Mark's site, but I don't know that I can contribute much more than the fact that it has been a safe space for me, sometimes in ways I felt IRC couldn't be*, and the fact that I simply haven't seen or been aware of the same issues in my time on the site.
Additionally, now that I'm aware this is a problem, I agree that it's a serious one and I would rather stay on the site and try to do something about it when I see it than give up on a community that has brought me a lot of joy and a lot to look forward to through some huge life changes the past couple years. The only thing in these posts that I have a hard time agreeing with or seeing the other side on is the idea that by enjoying the community I've become like a Mark-cultist. I mean, I think he's a good guy, but I'm not giving him all my worldly possessions just yet.

*I love IRC to death, but there are things I can't handle, and after years I've accepted that it's just a part of who I am and what I've experienced and not a cultural phenomenon of sensitivity. It's not often, but once in a while there are threads or comments on IRC which I see, am triggered by, and skip/leave. I don't mind doing so - it's a version of what I do in real life as well - but for me it's also nice to have a place where the triggering events almost never happen.

Atropos wrote:

I'd just like to say that I'd give my front teeth if Shadowjack did an IWIW thread for Utena. Maybe he'll do it once he finishes this latest season of Sailor Moon.

I hadn't heard of Shadowjack but I can see where my afternoon is going.

Atropos wrote:

In case you didn't know, this has begun. First episode is free; others are $0.99 each.

Also, I and other members of the forums are providing some video download links in the Black Market section of the MarkSpoils blog.

ETA: thanks for the Shadowjack rec, by the way, I'm most of the way through R and loving it.

Last edited by Pratyeka (05-23-2014 06:27:29 AM)

Atropos wrote:

Oh, God, he got to episode 23. Thinking back on it, I was kind of nonchalant about the whole thing...which makes me wonder what sort of horrible traumas I went through to make me such a blasé child.

I know, right? Both 22 and 23 were great for reactions. I think I must have been watching too much bizarre anime when I first got to Utena because I was the same way about the Mikage reveal. I can barely wait for his reaction to the new ED animation on 26, he's been so excited about things like smiles and hand-holding. I'm also planning to have tea and chocolate as well as a pillow (for crying and/or punching) nearby when 33 comes out.

Atropos wrote:

Ugh, the commenters' reactions to Episode 19 are much as I thought they'd be. And what's worse is that they essentially say, "NO MARK, YOU WATCHED IT WRONG, TATSUYA IS A BAD GUY." Because, of course, it's not like SKU is an extremely subjective show or anything.

Interestingly, one of the commenters attempted to refute those people by quoting Satyreyes.

You have arrived, Satyreyes. You have arrived.

I was surprised when he thought Anthy was the prince; that's one of the early theories I had when I initially watched the show.

Last edited by RhythmFusion (06-16-2014 03:10:31 PM)

Well, Tatsuya can come off as sort of "nice guy"-ish...