Tamago wrote:

I am probably being too simplistic but maybe he felt that Anthy’s act was a little too real for his liking, after all, It was supposed to be just an act to manipulate Utena, and Akio doesn’t like it when his careful plans move in directions that are hard to redirect from. (I curse my inability to translate my thoughts into words that I feel truely refect what I am trying to convey.)

Exactly -- he has to tell Anthy to be a good friend to Utena. When Akio starts to be threatened by the relationship, it's another matter (and visa versa by Episodes 35/36).

Tamago wrote:

I am probably being too simplistic but maybe he felt that Anthy’s act was a little too real for his liking, after all, It was supposed to be just an act to manipulate Utena, and Akio doesn’t like it when his careful plans move in directions that are hard to redirect from. (I curse my inability to translate my thoughts into words that I feel truely refect what I am trying to convey.)

Ah, so he underestimated her will to stay with Utena. He didn't see her gazing at the hankerchief in E12. But he seems to have intended Utena to lose the duel with Saionji when the sword disappeared. Perhaps, he wanted them to be close and then have Utena lose again? Hmmm, harsh.
^_^Maybe he should have picked a duelist that would've treated her a little better!

Yet he looks very satisfied when Anthy stabs Utena in the back. Is he deluded that Anthy's doing it for him? Because I think she's doing it to save Utena from taking the million swords in her place and also because she doesn't quite believe yet that Utena can save her. Heck, even Utena herself isn't sure until she slams her fist down after the Dios pep talk. I mean, she keeps calling on Akio to save Anthy, puh-lease.

Dani wrote:

ZSPACE wrote:

Anthy most likely has an extremely deep malice for her brother. She has all the power in the series and no one even knows it . Her passiveness is just an ultimate form of aggression and because of this others hate and abuse her.

I think there are some scenes which hint that Akio knows not to cross Anthy in certain situations. The one I think of now is the photography scene when he tries to put his hand on Utena's shoulder and Anthy says "Stop that!" speaking to Chu Chu but really, of course, speaking to Akio. Significantly, he takes his hand away immediately. I know there are other scenes, just can't think right now.

I think that Akio, like everyone else ( deep down) is afraid of Anthy. She does creep us out like when she drinks the milkshake in episode 15 during the duel ( nemurokinenkan.net) and ,' the rabbits dance.' She has soo much power over them all.

Dulcinea wrote:

Dani wrote:

Ah, so he underestimated her will to stay with Utena. He didn't see her gazing at the hankerchief in E12. But he seems to have intended Utena to lose the duel with Saionji when the sword disappeared. Perhaps, he wanted them to be close and then have Utena lose again? Hmmm, harsh.
^_^Maybe he should have picked a duelist that would've treated her a little better!

I thought that Akio himself was surprised when the Sword of Dios disappeared -- I don't remember his expression perfectly offhand, but I definitely got the impression the disappearance took him by surprise (although more as an interesting twist to the game rather than anything to worry about.) Then, I took the whole thing as being Anthy losing her faith in Dios (and beginning to replace it with faith in Utena). She also behaves quite differently that night -- only time I remember her acting afraid before getting into bed with Akio, rather than cheerful or indifferent.

Anthy could be lashing out and letting her guard down ( when utena is concerned). This could also be the moment when Anthy realizes (?) there may be a way out of the game and she is like what am i doing?

Okay, I'm going to get some quotes from the original thread too. Thank you for making a seperate thread! It was getting rather messy.

Clarice wrote:

And from the way Akio sounded so desperate when Anthy walked out on him in the last episode, I think he needs her just as much, if not more, than she ever needed him. I don't think it's just because she held within herself a part of his own being...it was because she was his sister and I think that actually does count for something. To make any real sense of those two we'd have to make a thread about their actual relationship, but I think for now it's enough to say they stayed with each other so long because they were punishing one another for what happened when Anthy took Dios's sword and then the million swords...Anthy is being punished for taking Dios from the world, while Dios is being punished for being unable to save his sister. AH THE IRONY I IRONY.

First of all, I love this. Anthy and Akio's relationship is very messed up and it has a lot of resentment, but there's caring there as well.

I also wonder if all those times when Anthy seemed jealous, such as when she was stepping in between Utena and Akio in the photo, if she was jealous about losing Akio OR Utena. Or both?

Ivy-chan wrote:

Funny, I saw it as a roundabout warning from Akio to not get too close to Utena with that metaphor: 'I found a new star, I feel like when I discover a new star I make it mine. But a star is still a star, it belongs to nobody'. Like he was telling Anthy 'you may be her bride for now, but she doesn't belong to you and she is only a tool.'

..I never thought of that, but I think you're right. I thought he meant Dios in general, but it makes more sense that he meant Utena. He didn't want Anthy getting too close to her.

Giovanna wrote:

You mean this shot? I agree, there is something suspicious about it... It just seems kinda thrown in there, in much the way that would suggest there's a reason, because the way she's moving doesn't follow at all from the position she's in a moment prior. However, in that sequence she does cross her arms over her abdomen as she arches. The motions are fluid and quite pretty but at root it's almost like she's reacting to being stabbed.

Except she's arching back instead of keeling forward. I vaguely recall there being a neurological thing where babies will react with the opposite of the proper response to stimulus like pain. They'll stretch their foot out instead of curl it together if you tickle, etc. Not that I think they're related but is something to note...

Oooh. Now that makes me think of when all the swords were stabbing Anthy. She didn't once recoil. In fact, in some shots it looks like she's stretching out more and making herself more of a target for them. She really does matyr herself and make herself suffer when it comes to that. And in that way, she really is a lot like a prince.

Dulcinea wrote:

Then, I took the whole thing as being Anthy losing her faith in Dios (and beginning to replace it with faith in Utena). She also behaves quite differently that night -- only time I remember her acting afraid before getting into bed with Akio, rather than cheerful or indifferent.

..wow, I love that thought. I was boggling all over that subject in the previous thread, but that makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

Wow, and now this thread is getting on the topic if the previous one. But I love all of these posts.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-23-2006 11:59:11 PM)

Dani wrote:

ZSPACE wrote:

Anthy most likely has an extremely deep malice for her brother. She has all the power in the series and no one even knows it . Her passiveness is just an ultimate form of aggression and because of this others hate and abuse her.

I think there are some scenes which hint that Akio knows not to cross Anthy in certain situations. The one I think of now is the photography scene when he tries to put his hand on Utena's shoulder and Anthy says "Stop that!" speaking to Chu Chu but really, of course, speaking to Akio. Significantly, he takes his hand away immediately. I know there are other scenes, just can't think right now.

...you know, I am torn on this one. I don't know that Anthy should really resent her brother for the fact he appears the one behind the wheel (PUN FULLY INTENDED HA HA HA) when she is the one providing the gas (and most likely the vehicle, at that). I mean, she took the power from her brother because...well, he wasn't misusing it, exactly. He was just damaging himself by sacrificing himself for everyone else, and I think Anthy resented that not only because it was killing him, but because he couldn't sacrifice himself for her. Isn't that sick? I'm so sick.

Giovanna wrote:

Castor. Also, fun fun: Castor and Pollux, generally, are said to be born from Leda after Zeus goes all swanpimpin' on her. They're born from eggs. I bet Akio thought that was a very clever joke at the time. Then he had to eat his joke with a side of 'totally screwed'.

I have nothing else to say to this save this: I just scared everyone in this house and the two attached flats by screaming with laughter. If I get committed and no-one ever sees nor hears of me again at this forum, it's YOUR fault.

Giovanna wrote:

Akio's biggest mistake was trusting his control over Anthy. By that point he does suspect it, but he's in complete denial about the degree. He's still at the point where he thinks killing Utena would prove Anthy's loyalty to him because it's a rather miserable thing to do to a friend, but I really don't think the poor boy had any idea Anthy was so far gone as to commit acts of mercy and sacrifice.

I find that interesting because Akio must believe that Anthy is still devoted to him despite their growing antagonism, if he can't believe that Anthy would sacrifice herself for anyone else the way she did for him when he was still Dios (although he obviously didn't and still doesn't appreciate it). I think a lot of Akio's belief in his control over Anthy lies in the fact she DID do that for him because she loved him. Sure, Anthy wanted to come between him and the princesses of the world because she wanted his attention (OMG sound like anyone else?), but she did it because she didn't want him to die. Because she loved him. I think this is obvious from the fact Akio plays up on that when he asks Anthy to give him Utena's sword -- he points out he is this way BECAUSE of her love for him, and then says he loves her all the same. Despite the tears -- which may have been glycerine in flavour -- I think the sentiment actually was genuine.

Giovanna wrote:

ZSPACE wrote:

I think that Akio, like everyone else ( deep down) is afraid of Anthy.

Oh yes, but he has the most reason to. He thinks the swords will go after the prince (him) if she stops taking them, so at the end of the day all their games and his power barely hide that he's completely dependent on her. Anthy, I don't really know what she thinks. I also don't think she particularly cares what happens to Akio beyond a pang of regret for what he once was, but by the same token she likes knowing she's ultimately the one in control, and there a few reasons why she'd want to make Akio's life a misery, not all of them related directly to his current behavior. And if Akio uses the car and the tower to compensate for anything, it's not his small penis; it's the fact that he's totally emasculated by Anthy. She took the power of Dios, and now she hangs it over his head that if she leaves, he's going to have a very bad day. Whether any of this is true, it's hard to say; he was obviously wrong if he assumed the swords would come after him, which was what Anthy no doubt let him think (I think she understood the swords a bit better). We don't know what happens at the end of the day, though. Utena took for herself the sacrifice he was supposed to make; I wonder if down the road he'll realize that and think the whole thing went smashingly for him.

I really can't decide how Anthy feels about Akio when she walks out on him in the end -- does she leave him because of what he has become? It would strike me as hypocritical if she did, because she played a rather large hand in what happened to him way back when. But then the thing is, Anthy has learned that they can't be mired in their mistakes forever and that they can move on from one another; Akio is still in his coffin dead. It makes me wonder that if Akio ever tried to change, if she would be inclined to go anywhere near him again? Which begs the question of can Akio change after what was done to him, but then...was the "surgical removal" of Dios all in his head anyway? Was Anthy just screwing with his mind all along?

...aw, crap. I am shutting up right now before anything else comes out of my mouth.

Okay, there's another scene with Anthy in Episode 37 (I find that episode endlessly fascinating) that bugged me for awhile but I think I get it now but I'd love to get comments.

It's the scene in the bedroom when Anthy says to Utena (I'm paraprasing) "I like this life. I hope nothing changes about the way we three feel about each other." She's looking at Utena quizically. Utena looks at her and then angrily rips up the letter from End of the World.

I much pondered that scene. I couldn't believe that Anthy really believes that statement. Then I started looking at Anthy's behavior through the whole episode. My conclusion is that Anthy is trying to end the game before the final duel happens. She attempts to take Utena out of the game by, I think deliberately, allowing Utena to see her and Akio together. It seems like Utena just decided to walk in there but they've been keeping it a secret under her nose for all this time so I'm inclined to believe that Anthy felt it was time for Utena to know.

Most people in Utena's place would have the same reaction Nanami has when she sees them together (this place is nuts, I'm outta here). Nope, Utena stays and even seems to forgive Anthy and Akio. Next attempt, Anthy is desperate to know what Utena is thinking but she can't just ask because this is SKU so she tries to find out what Utena thinks by throwing out the "I like this life. I hope nothing changes about the way we three feel about each other" statement. Maybe Anthy thinks Utena likes this threesome situation and wants it to stay this way so she phrases it in a passive aggressive way. The threesome offer gets an angry reaction from Utena so, no, Utena is not happy with the way things are right now. So Anthy goes to Plan B. If she can't get Utena to quit the game, then she will take herself out of the game by committing suicide. Utena does not let her do that. They have the heart to heart they should have had a long time ago. Utena decides she will go to the "castle" for Anthy's sake, the rest is history.

Please help me with this theory, any other explanations?

Dani wrote:

Okay, there's another scene with Anthy in Episode 37 (I find that episode endlessly fascinating) that bugged me for awhile but I think I get it now but I'd love to get comments.

It's the scene in the bedroom when Anthy says to Utena (I'm paraprasing) "I like this life. I hope nothing changes about the way we three feel about each other." She's looking at Utena quizically. Utena looks at her and then angrily rips up the letter from End of the World.

I much pondered that scene. I couldn't believe that Anthy really believes that statement. Then I started looking at Anthy's behavior through the whole episode. My conclusion is that Anthy is trying to end the game before the final duel happens. She attempts to take Utena out of the game by, I think deliberately, allowing Utena to see her and Akio together. It seems like Utena just decided to walk in there but they've been keeping it a secret under her nose for all this time so I'm inclined to believe that Anthy felt it was time for Utena to know.

Great! I've always been puzzled by that scene as well as WHY Utena reacted the way she did when she finally did see Akio & Anthy together. The show skips from that scene to the next morning. Why did she feel as if Anthy betrayed her, when usually Utena was so protective. Here we have the most startling revelation of all Anthy's torments, and Utena begins trying to make a 'date'. It's the one part of Utena's decision-making that her character motives don't seem to predict.

brian wrote:

Utena herself was becoming morally blinded and even corrupt. The more idealistic you think you are the harder it is to see in yourself.

Yeah, she was blinded by her first crush and she was pretty silly with the earrings, etc. NOT how we want our stalwart heroine to act! I won't say she was "in love" with Akio because notice, the minute she sees Anthy and Akio together, the lure of Akio is really gone for Utena. He tries to tempt her with the princess thing but she's not really that tempted.

brian wrote:

She jumped to the outrageous conclusion that Anthy was trying to take Akio away from her.

Hmm, I don't know that I agree. I think she realizes that the Anthy/Akio sex thing has been going on for quite awhile, long before her. It shocks her to think that this has been going on behind her back and it also shocks her that she never picked up on it. But even more fundamentally, WHO IS IT that she is actually jealous over? Not Akio who she THOUGHT she was in love with, but Anthy. She realizes that it's her relationship with Anthy that's on the line. I think it's that realization that gets her to go out with Akio one more time just to make sure he's not the one she has feelings for. She needs a day to think about her own reaction. By the end of that day, she's back with Anthy and Akio is a "bad guy" to her after that.

brian wrote:

Anthy was probably unable to visualize a better life than she had at that moment. She did not want to lose either of them.

That's possible, but if that's true, why throw yourself off of a balcony? I think her thoughts are all on Utena at the end of the series. I agree that she thinks she can't get out of her situation except by suicide, but I think she's trying to save Utena by getting Utena to quit the game. I do agree that she was jealous over both of them earlier in the series.

My thoughts on Anthy/Akio (besides it being hot, because I think it is.) are this:
During the series, I thought that it was a love/hate realtionship. I thought that they hated each other, but couldn't stand being away from each other, and if Akio didn't feel something that wasn't totally negative for Anthy, why would he go the most out of his way for her? Sometimes I thought it was like an abusive relationship; Anthy was his posession, and he didn't like her belonging to anyone else. (The duels don't count, she was acting.) Earlier on in the series, I think Anthy was still had some romantic feelings for what used to be Dios. (And I believe it was more so in the manga than in the anime.) But in the last episode, I'm not sure. I understand that Anthy's attack on Utena might have been to save her, or possibly to dirve home the point that Anthy saw herself as unable of beign saved. She didn't do it for Akio. But that whole exchange afterward, in which Anthy says that line about knowing the whole of the world, and Akio says "And knowing all of you, I love you," that part I can't figure out. It's possible Akio was saying that to manipulate her, it's possible they were both lying. That's probably the most logical explination. But some part of me wonders if there wasn't any truth in those lines. Thoughts?

Last edited by belladonna (11-17-2006 08:18:20 PM)

Dani wrote:

Yes, they ARE hot, aren't they??? I'm not sure when brother/sister incest became hot (um, oh yeah, Episode 14). BUT I have to say I cringe everytime at Anthy's line to Utena about how Akio is really more like her, ack!, father....yikes!

So do I T_T. But if you wanna be a shipper, we're kindred souls. The old act theory about Akio and Anthy's lines makes sense. At that part of the series, though, I was rooting for Utena (as much as I hated how she acted before, trying to be a prince, I was sold in the episode where we see what really happened when she was little. I HATE the other story. The real one is much more beautiful, and much more like her, I think. Utena trying to be a prince is very fake. And she gets hurt for that.) and Anthy. That was sad and beautiful and great to watch and I cried.

The original question of this thread probably has no simple answer but as far as Akio was concerned it was probably mostly hate. In their car ride together Anthy is screaming in pain and Akio is snarling saying that it's not his fault. But of course neither is he without fault. That car ride does not happen at just one point in time, it is their whole current relationship. He probably wishes like anything to escape from the screaming writhing symbol of his fall. He can't escape just by hitting the pedal.

He tells Utena what a great person she must be for associating with someone like his [pathetic/awful/pitiful] sister. She tells him it is simple friendship which is not the answer he expected or wanted to hear.  He later claims that Anthy enjoys her torture just to torture him (we cannot know if that is really true but it might be).

One of the few times Ikuhara came out of the fog it was to explain that the scene where Akio is drinking that red punch [red rum?] it symbolizes that he is sucking the blood of Utena and Anthy.

Last edited by brian (11-17-2006 09:03:37 PM)