soberdriver1:

I will repost here some of what I've since posted in other parts of the forum:

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?p … 49#p249049

No matter what the Shadow Girls are, I think we can all agree that they always convey the "essence" of the truth - the actual plot fact presented via an allegorical play and/or speech.

Thus, in the following scene in Ep 39:

shadow:  This little tramp just started going out with the man of her dreams.
shadow:  She was the one who kept going "Utena-sama, Utena-sama" all the time.
shadow:  Hey, you got a problem with that?
shadow:  Hey, who was Utena-sama again?
shadow:  What, don't you know?
shadow:  Remember? She's that girl who always dressed like a guy.
shadow:  She got hassled by the teachers all the time.
shadow:  Oh, now I remember. Her!
shadow:  But didn't she get hurt real bad and hospitalized a month or two ago?
shadow:  Huh? Hospitalized? I heard she got betrayed by a friend or a lover or something and switched schools.
shadow:  I heard she got in trouble with the Chairman of the Board of Trustees and expelled.
shadow:  Well, not like it matters.

I am certain that is the exact sentiment at the heart of all the students - all with new current pursuits in life - when they do think back on the disappeared Utena.

I know there is a prevailing theory about "magical amnesia" due to a shot of ruin Nemuro Hall shown, which leads to Utena's fate being likened to Mikage/Nemuro's.  But let's remember that Mikage is not young in present time, but is a fake/unnatural existence in the school - his youthful appearance and his building's "rebuilt" state can all be attributed to Projector projections. Thus when Akio "pull the plug" on him, it makes sense for his false existence to crumble - the fact that everyone forgets him is just a dramatic storytelling method to empathize how "the young fake Mikage" is no more, and that most in Ohtori don't know/recognize the old age Nemuro who could still exist (likely off campus).  Utena, on the other hand, is an actually young "present time" adolescent - she is current and real.  It makes no sense that she gets erased off the current reality, especially not after a portion of the Swords of Hate crushed the Dueling Arena illusion - what moral-lession/thematic purpose would having the "triumphant" Heroine magically erased by the Villain serve?

Adding the SC "forgetting" speech:
Nanami:  We should all just hurry up and forget all this.
Miki:  I wonder if this is the sort of thing that can be forgotten.
Juri:  Come to think of it...I've forgotten that boy's name.
Miki:  "That boy"?
Juri:  Long ago, when my older sister was still a child, she nearly drowned in a river.
Juri:  On that day, there was a boy who jumped into the river to try to save her.
Nanami:  And?
Juri:  My sister got lucky and was saved by a nearby adult, but...
Juri:  the boy who tried to save my sister and jumped into the river was swept away.
Nanami:  Did he die?
Juri:  I thought my sister was very cold for forgetting his name so quickly...
Juri:  But now that I try to remember, it seems I've forgotten it too.
Nanami:  Hey...
Nanami:  Hey...
Nanami:  Why'd you tell us that now?

The more I think of it, the more unreasonable the "magical amnesia" theory sounds.  Methinks everyone simply put memories of Utena in the backs of their minds as they got busy with dealing with their present situations, which she's no longer a part of: it is human nature (looking forward without glancing back + ficklness) at work here, nothing more, nothing less.

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?p … 50#p251650

SKU – Utena “seemingly, realistically forgotten” by everyone but Akio and Anthy.
None of the Student Council and Black Rose students outright say or do anything to say an “enchantment-amnesia” (as so many fans had insisted happened) took place.  Unlike in Mikage’s case, no buildings/settings changed when she was gone – another strike against the enchantment amnesia theory. There’s even a Shadow Girls Speech alluding to how the cast are processing Utena’s vanishing: “Wasn’t she that so-and-so who use to do what-and-what?  Well, not like it matters.”  Utena is being “forgotten” in such a way that most real life people are forgotten once they change school/work: by being out of sight.  No longer in the here and now, she quickly got put out of most people’s minds, even while the “changes” she’s made on the students still is apparent – much like now Juri’s sister still lives, while the name of her savior is forgotten by the Arisugawas.  I find Utena’s ending a realistic take on how even the best people get forgotten by our real world, and thus seem relevant and real to me.

soberdriver1 wrote:

Tokiko seems to show that she still remembers what happened at Ohtori even though she's aged and moved on to a normal life though if she visits the grave once a year, it may keep memories fresh.

I believe Tokiko remembers because she sees what happened at Ohtori as still being relevant to her present situation - specifically, the "brotherless state" that no doubt still pains her even unto old age. 

In the same way, I think Utena will remember Anthy vividly, as the latter was the reason she got rushed by the swords and is now on the outside.  Whether she’d still remember details about . . . say, Nanami’s henchwomen and men, however, is another matter entirely.

Hope you find this helpful

lurv wrote:

Actually, I probably would, since I suck at remembering names.

*Nods.*

Unless written down, names are usually the first thing we forget about someone, before their very images too became vague to the mind.

I agree with shutin.  I think the only magical amnesia in the show is the kind connected to Mikage and the illusions built around him.  Mikage's duelists didn't kind-of-forget about dueling; they forgot completely.  After Mikage was gone, Miki didn't kind-of-forget about Nemuro Memorial Hall; he couldn't even remember its name or any details about what happened there.  So that's what magical amnesia looks like in SKU.  The way people "forget" about Utena at the end of the show looks very different.  They kind-of-remember her.  Some remember her more than others, and others don't remember her but are like "oh, yeah!" when they're reminded.  They remember rumors about her disappearance.   It seems cold that they forgot her so quickly -- like Juri thought it seemed cold that her sister forgot the name of the boy who saved her -- but it's not unrealistic, and I don't think it's magic.

The following's not quite forgetfulness but more like a blind spot. 

I notice that Tokiko's older & knows she's older and that years have passed.  She also seems shocked that Nemuro looks just like he did at the time the hall burned to ashes, but she recognized Akio but doesn't seem to notice that he hasn't aged in the least.  So, I'm wondering whether she knows there's something 'special' about Akio or whether he somehow keeps that thought out of her head.

It makes sense that if she knew about his abilities, she'd definitely try to get Akio's help though I'd always thought of it as Akio going after anybody and everybody because he could & to push Nemuro back on track. 

It makes me wonder a bit about what's going to happen to Akio's memory after Anthy left.  While I'm presuming he's an immortal or close to it and used to a lot of time passing, I wonder if his memory of everything that's happened will remain perfect or will turn strange a long way into the future.  I just have this strange image of Akio looking at the glasses Anthy left behind like Utena looks at the rose ring during the beginning of the series.  I'm assuming that Akio never learns, remains as selfish and stubborn as ever, and remains stuck in his coffin.   Since a lot of his power came from his power over her, he may or may not start to deteriorate.

Last edited by soberdriver1 (04-30-2013 08:51:42 PM)

Arreat wrote:

Seems many got a mellow ending. Anthy's obviously being the biggest change.

*nods*

Are they wearing their duelist rings at the end? After the whole Akio duel, not when they're all on top of the tower talking. /needs to go look up screens

It's confirmed that Nanami has been ring less since the Duel called Revolution is unfolding.  I'm pretty sure no one is wearing the ring post revolution.

Considering Utena became very much an afterthought, I can see Anthy becoming even more of an afterthought to the duellists since they only know her as the Rose Bride and/or a rival to a loved one's affections.