I've actually entertained the notion that Anthy didn't actually exist until Dios "needed" her.  That, somewhat like in the manga when Akio splits himself off from Dios and "kills" Dios, Anthy manifested from Dios to act as a scapegoat in his moment of weakness.  I've never mentioned it because I don't think it works very well as an explanation.

I think it's more likely that no one ever noticed Anthy prior to her acting publicly as a Witch.  Everyone was obsessed with and fulfilled by Dios, and Anthy was essentially invisible, a complete non-entity.  I think that supports and informs some elements of her personality.

I was just talking to Rhyaniwyn about this...I'm still not sure what happened to Saionji, but later events in the show make it pretty clear that it wasn't Touga that talked her out of the coffin.

I always figured he gave the exchange diary to Touga as a half-ass way of destroying it. (Touga finished that part for him.) But he realized he was leaving behind that life, and that writing to Anthy would accomplish nothing towards obtaining her when he hasn't the power to fight for her. I always figured it was kinda like 'Well now what do I do with this?'

dabouse1 wrote:

I think that maybe this cigar really is just a cigar, but it's something that has always pricked at me: Does Anthy really need those glasses? At the end of the series, I assumed that she was wearing contacts. If I were to stretch and think that it may be symbolic, I'd say that she doesn't need a handicap for seeing anymore, because Utena opened her eyes to the real world.

But really, no one has wondered?

Actually, one of us covered that situation, along with unbinding her hair and Chu Chu taking off his own accouterments. Don't remember where, though. You'd have to dig.

Or the glasses are just her mask, one that she dons or doffs at will.

As they say, it's always the quiet ones....

Stormcrow wrote:

dabouse1 wrote:

Also, at the end of episode 26, where Miki sees "the End of the World" and duels Utena again with Kozue as his rose bride, Kozue calls Miki a coward. I was confused when i first saw that, and I'm not sure why she said that. Anyone knows?

This is one that has always troubled me. The way I see it, Kozue idolizes and worships her brother, while devaluing herself. So why would she call him a coward? It could be that she's never actually seen him fail before for one thing. It's also possible that she views his failure as brought on by his refusal to "become dirty". In other words, his prudishness about sex made her putting the moves on Anthy too distracting, and thus he lost. It is interesting to note that Miki lost this duel due to external factors. It wasn't a clear cut "Utena is better" kind of thing, or even the power of Dios, he just lost his concentration. Anybody else have any thoughts, I'd love to hear more about this one.

Without rewatching, I agree with you -- she calls him a coward because he refuses to see the darker aspects of his own character. He won't face up to the fact that he can be as "dirty" as Kozue has become, and at her heart Kozue seems to believe that is what is required to gain your true desires. It's a twisted logic, and twisted love besides. She does actually want him to be happy. She just doesn't believe he can be happy and still maintain this pretty vision of the world. Kozue has rejected that sunny garden, and thinks Miki is a coward for not doing the same. He's afraid of the adult world, so to speak, whereas by projecting her sexuality onto him Kozue has made the adult world more appealing to herself because she can still maintain an exclusive relationship with her brother in it. If that makes sense. It's late, and I am tired.

I think one of Miki's biggest faults, and the reason he is ever the duelist, never the Prince, is that good intentions are just that, good intentions.  They mean well, but by themselves or without any of the willpower or wisdom in which to act upon them, they acheive nothing. Miki wants to do good, and to help, but only if he can stay in his own comfort zone while he does it.  Touga and Akio convince him to act on his intentions instead of remaining passive, and they succeed.  At the same time Kozue tries to get him to leave his comfort zone, but fails.

Miki wants to protect the princesses, but he won't fight any dragons.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Miki wants to protect the princesses, but he won't fight any dragons.

That's pretty much what Dios is doing, too. He won't block the swords for Anthy. And, he's also a Prince.
But at least Dios is willing to see things as they are while Miki prefers to be blindfolded.

Last edited by Hiraku (07-27-2008 10:51:55 PM)

"Touga & the Coffin"
The series pretty explicitly states that Touga didn't talk Utena out of the coffin.  In the flashbacks, he listened to what she had to say...pretty gravely and impassively for someone of his age.  He didn't try to argue with her, he accepted her decision.  Pretty respectful, I think (well, or indifferent).  He also seemed to grasp her despair...insightful, again, for someone of his age.  Supports my thoughts that Touga has some bad memories of his life before adoption that Nanami doesn't because she was still a baby.  But I digress.

"Saionji Drowning"
I couldn't answer Stormcrow when we talked about how in the world Saionji ended up there.  I'll tell you that I was of the opinion that he hadn't been there very long before Utena showed up.  Frankly I don't think that Anthy did it... Touga may have, he's ruthless enough.  But I just haven't decided yet...I actually tend to favor the idea (even as I think it's kind of dumb) that the arena did it.  That the entrance rejected him.  Which could ultimately mean Akio did it--and Akio was obviously supporting Touga's scheme, even if Touga didn't realize how much, because the projector was supporting Touga's scheme (and testing Utena with loaded imagery at the same time).  The idea suited Akio, gave him a chance to explore curiosity about Utena.

"Coward"
I agree with the spirit of why Kozue called Miki a coward.  He's a coward who is, ultimately, afraid to truly act to grasp what he wants.  Can't you see his "distraction" in both duels as an excuse: "I got distracted this time, but next time!"  I'd call Miki a coward for several reasons, but I think Kozue is referring to his inability to really do what it takes to win.  To her, this may mean getting dirty, or truly committing, or staying focused.  Kozue may think she herself is dirty and that Miki is perfect, but I don't think she would view encouraging Miki "fight dirty" as dragging him down or corrupting him--I think her admiration of him may be pathological in that way--Miki is the "good twin," no matter what he does.

"Dios"
I think I agree that there's more to Dios...or I have a similar urge to undermine his perfect image. ;-)  But one thing the series states is that Dios made all the girls in the world Princesses.  So it's not like it's class-based discrimination on his part.  Unless that's an exaggeration that really means "all the important girls, anyway", even poor girls would be eligible.  Every girl except Anthy would be eligible, from what we're told.

However, I think what you said still has application--because he's gaining almost universal admiration from the opposite sex, nonetheless!  And gratitude from their families.  So he's certainly getting a lot out of it, status particularly.  (I love being admired...especially by people of the gender I'm attracted to.  And there's that tradition of 'notches on the bedpost'...maybe there's not so much difference between Dios and Akio when all is said and done.)

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (07-30-2008 04:28:04 PM)

Giovanna wrote:

Actually I wonder about that. Did Dios want quite so much to save Anthy? Dios did something that fell him. Could he have saved his sister then? Did he realize he could? Or does Dios' high moral character only extend to the role he plays saving princesses?

I'm not sure what I'm getting at here, except that it seems odd. Dios saved Princesses, not poor people, sick people, but Princesses. He chose a certain group that seems suspiciously like the one that would gain him the most status. When Anthy faces the mob, it's not Princesses that want his blood though, it's their mothers, fathers, friends. The people that should be doing the saving themselves, but are helpless without Dios. Maybe that was Dios' blindfold. He refused to see people as capable of helping themselves and others, and so by acting that way, he created his own presumption. By this you could say Akio does nothing more than pick at the wound already put there by Dios' blindfolded good intentions--he does seem to favor manipulating the not-Princesses, ignoring as best he can the one pretty obvious representation of one: his fiancee.

Dios is so easily taken as purely good that I'm quite determined to prove he's not.

I always thought that it was Dios who purposefully sent Utena to eventually help Anthy, but I never understood the reason why.  My first guess was what you said, about Dios blindfolding himself to seeing that "people that should be doing the saving themselves, but are helpless without Dios."  One of my interpretations of Utena was that the whole thing about Dios saving the day was a major theme, at least at the end.  Maybe this belongs on the religion-y thread, but I think it's relevent here.  Dios was supposed to symbolize what some people think about God, that he'll just suddenly come to the rescue like a prince on a white horse.  But the truth is, that's not how it's supposed to be, and Dios learned that when Anthy was attacked by the mob.  So before he "died," or became/was seperated from Akio, he tried a different approach, because he was upset about what happened to Anthy and was probably ashamed.

Then again, this view has...plotholes.  Like why the hell no one knew about Anthy -- unless she symbolized the idea that people shouldn't depend on Dios so...literally (for lack of a better word), and people just didn't realize that yet.  And I'm also pretty sketchy about why Dios was only saving women.  My first assumption would be another Christian-metaphor: that God and the Church (which, yes, includes both sexes) are like husband and wife.  But it's just a guess.

I'm sorry if I didn't degrade Dios like you wanted.  I really want to, and I kind of tried!   If it's any consolation, I was very doubtful and suspicious of Dios when he was seen with Akio as Utena was painfully walking towards Anthy's coffin at the final episode.  They both looked pretty chill.

It seems to me that in this part of the show Anthy is becoming more and more aware of her feelings for Utena, and more uncomfortable with them. It may be that she's never cared so much about anyone but her brother, and doesn't understand why or what it means. Plus, she doesn't really trust Utena, not yet. In that episode, she's recently given into Akio's charms, which I suspect was at least a disappointment to Anthy, apart from any feeling of betrayal she may have. So she doesn't know what to make of her, and I think she's a little scared, which isn't something she's used to.