There are plenty of brilliant threads filled with Saionji analysis here on IRG that discuss Saionji's motives, personality, and past.  You can find some tidbits in the later pages of Personal Canon, a good deal in Giovanna's Come with me on an Sku Body Language Tour - Meals Included! thread,  even more in Giovanna's Jeolousy and Wanting to Be Saved - Another Saionji Thread By Gio thread.  And if I'm not mistaken there is a little bit in the Symbolism in SKU thread.  All these topics can be found in either Shoujo Kakumei Utena or In Flagrante Delicto. 

Really though, I do not believe that Saionji and Touga had any sort of sexual relations or tensions, even, as children.  The Saionji we see in the series is very naive and despite his manly manly temper, unaware of his own sexuality, or more likely in desperate denial of it, which causes it to fall victim to neglect and ignorance, keeping it childlike and hard to express without shame inside his older body, which leads to frustration and the mixed-up desire for affection, control, reliability, and, though it is buried deep down and he'll never admit it, sex, from Anthy.  Which of course leads only to further frustration and at it's peak, anger and violence from Saionji.

Part of what he feels for Touga, is, of course, jealousy.  He says that Touga has always appeared to be better than him, like he is on some whole different level.  This can be taken in terms of both athletic prowess and status (Kendo and the Student Council) and in terms of sexuality (Touga is sexually aware, unashamed and confident, none of which Saionji can say for himself.)  Part of Saionji wants to be like Touga in this respect, but he tends to see it, like a lot of things, in terms of extremes.  Touga is, at the end of the day, not entirely perfect in Saionji's eyes.  He's sneaky, manipulative, and a complete whore.  Saionji doesn't want to desire things that appear superficial or morally corrupt; that's dirty, shameful and selfish, so he denies his desire for Touga's sexual freedom and reinterprets it as a desire to 'beat' or 'best' Touga in the dueling game by winning Anthy and achieving eternity.  He does not realize, extremist and foolish as he is, that you can be sexually aware and self-confident without being a complete whoring ass about it.

Another part is that he desires friendship from Touga.  All that eternity business, besides a way of competing with Touga, represents this, and boils down to Saionji wanting something that makes him happy....to last.  Touga in the church opened a coffin -symbolic of death, despite Saionji's protests, and later gave  (well, claimed to have given) what Saionji desired so much -eternity- not to his best friend but some little girl who he had never met before that night, and had thusly betrayed and abandoned Saionji.  He felt both the loss of his friend and the loss of his childish dreams of forever in one night.  Over the years Touga's growing and confident sexuality and popularity further widened the rift between them.  Saionji wants both his friendship back with Touga and his assurance that good things last.  He is an extremist in this sense as well; if it can't last forever...if it's only destined to end or leave you...then what's the point of having it at all?

Why does Saionji want or need eternity even before the night in the church?  There is a lot of speculation regarding Saionji's unknown childhood and family life that may account for this.  After Saionji is expelled he leaves the school with only a single bag of items, one so small it appears to only big enough for his katana, his kendo uniform, and his student council uniform.  Instead of returning home, he stays with Wakaba, and accets handouts from her.  This not only implies a lack of money in Saionji's family, but it also points to something a bit more disturbing.  Saionji did not go home.  Why?

All these little clues --including Saionji's feelings of shame and subsequent sexual repression, and his violence and chauvinism--  could paint the picture that Saionji didn't have the most ideal upbringing.  Or least one that lacked, to some degree, affection or consistency.  Maybe his parents divorced and they fought, maybe one of his parents died or left, and he was introduced to a new, physically or verbally abusive or neglectful parent.  Maybe the lack of money implies that his guardians had a hard time making money and were constantly moving to new homes and jobs, forcing Saionji to leave behind friends and memories each time.

In the midst of all this, he meets Touga, who, despite their differences, is his friend.  He's quite possibly the silver lining in Saionji's life, and Saionji is still young enough to hope and to dream that he will remain so, unlike so many other things that he loved or that made him happy.  Touga's betrayal and the sheer trauma that was the church were the last straws.


Any love though or sexual desire for Touga? I don't really believe it to be true, but I won't definitely discount it either.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (11-11-2008 01:34:11 PM)

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

He does not realize, extremist and foolish as he is, that you can be sexually aware and self-confident without being a complete whoring ass about it.

In his defense, though, he was at Ohtori Academy.  It's not like he was surrounded by positive sexual role models.

Touga in the church opened a coffin -symbolic of death, despite Saionji's protests, and later gave  (well, claimed to have given) what Saionji desired so much -eternity- not to his best friend but some little girl who he had never met before that night, and had thusly betrayed and abandoned Saionji.

Did Touga really tell Saionji that he had shown the girl something eternal?  The way I remember it (and it has been a while), Touga first realizes that she's asking for something eternal, and that this isn't something either of them can provide, so he tells Saionji as much and convinces him that they should go.  The next morning, when they come back, they see that she's not despairing any more, and Touga concludes (and states) that she must have seen something eternal, but I don't recall him claiming responsibility for this.  (Of course, that may not matter to how Saionji interprets things.)

Why does Saionji want or need eternity even before the night in the church?

I kind of always thought that he got the idea of the importance of eternity from that night, because, unlike Touga, he doesn't immediately realize the gravity of what Utena is asking for.  But I'll admit that this is rather subjective.

Really though, I do not believe that Saionji and Touga had any sort of sexual relations or tensions, even, as children.

This is kind of an odd statement to make since Saionji joined in on Touga and Akio's sexual escapades it the last arc of the show.  Of course they don't show it completely, but I'd say it's about as definite as Akio shagging Anthy although it's only (strongly) suggested.  Would the fact that you have a guy/guy threesome with someone indicate you had some kind of sexual relationship or tension?  I'd say yes.  Also there's the fact that Touga used Saionji's heart sword.  I don't really recall that happening between characters where there was no kind of romantic tension going on.  Not that I would necessarily call your interpretation wrong, but you must agree that Ikuhara purposely planted plenty of evidence to suggest other wise.

Last edited by J-Syxx (11-11-2008 05:28:38 PM)

aake Miki and Kozue, for example.  We kid, but there's not much evidence of sexual tension between the Kaoru twins in the series.

I thought the tension was rather obvious.  Whether or not they had sex is probably very debatable (as is the case in most of the relationships in this show), but there are obvious points where Ikuhara was trying to play up the existence of some innate sexual thing going on between them.  If you deny this I would think you are only examinging Utena on a surface level, when the show was designed to be much more suggestive, subtextual, metaphorical, ambiguous, etc. than that.  I would also apply this to the scenes such as Touga and Saionji riding suggestively on a bike with each other, etc. that have caused people to ship them together.  The reason why people deabate this stuff is becuase Ikuahara put all these suggestive scenes into the show on purpose.  He left it to the audience to interpret, but I think saying there's definitively nothing sexual on any level in stuff like Nanami/Touga, Miki/Kozue, or even Touga/Saionji etc. is just taking it a bit too far.  Just my two cents.

That, I think, is why Saionji ends up taking sultry photos in the planetarium with Touga and Akio; it seems like something a self-confident, sexual, masculine person would do.  (Or to put it another way, turning the photo shoot down once Touga suggested it would make Saionji a pussy in his own mind.)

That scene was absolutely homoerotic.  And if it was obvious that it was homoerotic to the audience, it should be obvious to Saionji, as well.  I really see no evidence for your alternative explanation, no offense.  I also think Akio's nature is obviously very sexual, thus letting Touga and Saionji into his schemes would require him exerting something sexual over them.

The sword-pulling is not about romantic tension, though; it has much more to do with love-hate relationships.  Take Miki and Kozue, for example.  We kid, but there's not much evidence of sexual tension between the Kaoru twins in the series.  There is, however, abundant evidence of a love-hate relationship.  Similarly, yes, okay, Juri probably lurves Shiori, but that's not why Shiori pulls a sword out of her; it's because there's something about Juri, her seeming perfection, that Shiori wants to own and corrupt at the very same time.  The same goes for every sword duo with the possible exception of Utena and Anthy, who are probably a special case.  The sword as a symbol of a love-hate relationship makes more sense than as a symbol of romantic tension; after all, the sword you pull may represent the other person's soul, but it is still an implement of destruction.

I would agree with you reading the love-hate relationships into that, but I would note most of those in this show have some kind of suggestive romantic/sexual edge to them.  And just look at how sexually provocative the imagery is animated.  Or the fact that in the Black Rose saga a lot of the characters were gossiping about their swords being pulled like it was sex and acted like they were climaxing when it occurred.  There is definitely more to this than you suggest, I would assume.

Last edited by J-Syxx (11-11-2008 07:32:45 PM)