crystalwren wrote:

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Miki's just a snail in a pencil box.

Holy crap that's chilling. And accurate.

Too accurate.
Nanami being restless in my hobby farm?  Let's have her do cow moo-moos in front of all her peers.  Or, how about making her lay an egg?
Kanae being restless? Let turn her into a living vegetable.
That's the kind of deities/monsters that the siblings really are.

Satyreyes wrote:

I don't think he's under any illusion at this point that the Champion Duelist might survive by giving in to Akio's advances.  The Champion Duelist is toast.  That's why he's dueling Utena: he's trying to save her (against her will) even at the cost of his own safety.  In other words, he's trying to be a prince.  He's being a chauvinist about it

I think it is worth noted that  the photoshoot comes soon after Touga's final duel to Utena, in which he was blatantly acting against Double A (even verbally warning Utena off them).  The photoshoot's dialogue as follows:

Ep37
Touga:  But, is this goodbye?
Saionji:  Sending a letter to say goodbye is "you" down to the last drop.
Touga:  So what do you intend to do with her?
Akio:  What do you mean, what do I intend?
Touga:  I can't imagine that Tenjou Utena would go through the Rose Gate.
Saionji:  She has no reason to.
Akio:  Really?
Touga:  She didn't want to become the one to Revolutionize the World.
Touga:  But you have her heart now.
Touga:  She chose you, a real person, over her Prince.
Akio:  The choice is hers. And she hasn't chosen yet.

Through it all, Touga is asking questions/making statements all seemingly trying to pry more info out of Akio's mouth.  With Saionji by his side doing the same (in a well-prepared, non-shocked manner), I do think the boys really wanna do the following things:
1) damage control aka pacify World's End through seduction/offering sex, so the latter don't turn hostile and immediately hurt Utena (or them)
2) pry info on what will happen to Utena in Duel called Revolution
3) try and deter Akio from forcing Utena through Final Duel - 'pleadingly', on Touga's part - stating that she loves the Chairman

And yes, I agree that Touga is a chauvinist to the end.  I do, however, think it is noteworthy that this chauvinist is now whoring both himself and his friend out not for gaining power, but for rescuing Utena.  Character flaws aside, it does say something about the magnitude of Touga's feelings for Utena, as well as the magnitude of Saionji's feeling for Touga.

As for Akio's feelings on the matter . . . they're all just pets/animals to him. It probably amuses him to see them go in heat thinking they could arose him, but he's certainly not gonna be tempted into sparing any one of them.  Thus why Touga still do not know what will happen to Utena in the Duel called Revolution in EP 38.

Frau Eva wrote:

I honestly believe that Akio and Anthy's relationship makes practically no sense if you don't realize they're immortal and have only been able to depend on each other for thousands of years. They're the only ones who understand each other and their history, the only ones they can act with on relatively equal footing, etc. If you were alone for eternity with just your sibling and a bunch of ignorant animals, you'd probably eventually screw each other. Something that awful seems pretty much a given in that situation.

Totally agree with everything about this part.

Frau Eva wrote:

I personally always thought that a sense of guilt over Anthy's swords is what made Akio eventually just blame her for everything just to save his own sanity, like a little kid who grows up in an abusive home and starts to hate the passive parent more for never standing up(aaaaaand then usually ends up abusive when he/she grows up....). The scene with Anthy in pain in the car and Akio screaming, obviously VERY upset and angry, insisting that her pain has nothing to do with him. Suuuuuuuuuuure......

There is definitely a sense of guilt stemming from his failure as man there (failing in protecting his sister/woman like a man should be able to do, that line of thought).  Though I do believe there were stuff happening that caused his view of Anthy to go from "the goddess who sacrificed herself for me" towards being "the witch who enjoys being the witch" (Ep 39) through their long falling of years.  It could be him seeing/sensing Anthy's once saintly character having corrupted/deviated into that of a 'dirty woman' (what she called herself on the suicide rooftop), much like how Akio knew himself to be no longer anything like the noble Dios once was

On the Ep 37 Double A car ride, my version of the show has the following dialogue:
"Does it hurt? But I'm not the one making you suffer.  It's the World."
There is a pained expression twisting Akio's features then.  I myself believe this is what make makes his statement to Anthy in EP 39 (I always feel your wounds, your suffering, with my own body) so effective to Anthy (in getting her to give him Utena's sword) - because however un-Dios-like he's become, her brother is still the brother who had been suffering her pains along with her throughout her godly long existence.

MikoG wrote:

In ep 37, Akio wrote:

"Does it hurt? But I'm not the one making you suffer.  It's the World."

I think that's just Akio refusing to take responsibility for his part in Anthy's suffering. I also got the impression that he put all the blame on her from the start; he does describe the Million Swords of Hate as Anthy's "punishment for taking the Prince away from the girls of the world" in ep 34, after all. Instead of being most angry at the villagers who skewered his sister, as one might expect, he's more mad at her for disempowering him; I reckon that's how their whole abusive cycle got started in the first place.

Script from EP 38 reads as follows:
Akio:  For Anthy?
Akio:  I thought that she was a goddess who sacrificed her body for the one she loved, for me.
Akio:  I once thought so too.
Akio:  And she really might have been, once. But now she's a witch.
Akio:  And she enjoys being a witch.
Thus why my headcanon that something happened in their past to change his perception of Anthy.  Other interpretations might work too, of course.

With regards to what Touga and Saionji were doing with Akio in ep 37, I've seen it speculated in another thread that Saionji was trying to protect Touga via presence, after having somehow figured out that his relationship with Akio was more fucked up than he first thought. So there's that idea.

That sounds like an interesting idea.  I'm interested to know what exactly is Saionji trying to protect Touga from via his presence, being that they're both interacting sexually with Akio in that scene?

Utena cannot say "no" because she feels intimidated by Akio, while I suspect Touga cannot say "no" because of his pride, which Akio uses against him. It's all pretty rotten.

I suspect instead of "cannot say no", Touga is offering himself up sexually to Akio in hopes of sharing in the man's power.  If you ask me, the reason Touga go locked in room o emo for entire BR arc was because the idea that he could be worthless to Akio after losing against Utena traumatized and debilitated him.  Thus why when Akio again took up along in the car ride scenes, the power-desperate boy was instantly revitalized. 

As for Utena feeling intimidated by Akio, I have to ask. . . why?  Sure, he is the Acting Chairman, in a position of authority, but Utena is a spirited girl famous for slapping down/disregarding authority figures - thus why those many scenes of her openly dissing the Guidance Counselor and the Vice President.  What makes Akio more intimidating in her eyes, that she'd feel intimidated by him, but not the other teachers/staff at Ohtori?

crystalwren wrote:

Here's a question: we see Anthy use sex and  her body to manipulate Akio, but unlike her brother, she only does this with the one person. Do you think she'd manipulate others in the same wayy if she had to? Or are the MOs of both siblings consistant regardless of target?

While Anthy's manipulation of Utena is all on the verbal/friendship level, her manipulation of Mikage (under Mamiya guise) does seem rather sexual (thus why the physical contacts and the "Bride suit you better comment in 1st BR Ep).  Plus I think on top of the exchange diary, it's reasonable to assume she must have done something sexual with Saionji to get him so obsessed with her on top of the 'eternity' comment.

Giovanna wrote:

Also the Miki being a snail in a pencil box jesus mind blown

No shit

Giovanna wrote:

If sex plays strongly in his approach, well, he's a horny guy, it's especially effective on youngsters just discovering their own sexuality, and it's one of the many things Akio seems to play at in an effort to appear more grown up than he actually is.

Great point. Akio is very comfortably wedged between the youth and adult worlds. He's older and more powerful than the high schoolers, but still young, cool, and sexy. And while he's comfortable navigating the petty politics and nepotism of the adults, he would much rather play hooky and drive around in his fast red luxury car. He plays around with adulthood like a useful tool and entertaining, just as he does the ideals of youth. But he isn't an adult. He's a child - sensual, curious, and completely egocentric - in the body of a magical gay porn star.

I kind of wonder if this isn't a cultural outlook built on a long history of physical/military force being not a great solution to some of Japan's problems.

Definitely a class issue as well. These are a bunch of bored, incredibly privileged, incredibly beautiful kids from elite families. They've had lifetime to learn how to impale a heart/ego without drawing blood. I think you noted that Saionji shows all of the signs of someone from a physically abusive household - probably not as affluent as the rest. Poor guy, stuck with all the passive-aggressives. He's the one character who wears his heart on his sleeve, leaving it a throbbing target for the rich bitches of the ruling class.

gorgeousshuttin wrote:

Supposing something this can actually constitute 'intimidation towards enforcing sex' a.k.a 'rape', then we have a lot, lot more ‘rape cases’ at Ohtori beyond those previously discussed in this thread.

I back up what a lot of people have said: if all this counts as rape, then seduction has officially expired. Still. Anyone up for my undeveloped prefrontal cortex argument=statutory rape argument? Utena is too young to make rational judgments? After all, the age of consent isn't purely random.

Katzenklavier wrote:

Anyone up for my undeveloped prefrontal cortex argument=statutory rape argument? Utena is too young to make rational judgments? After all, the age of consent isn't purely random.

I'm having trouble wrapping my (perhaps undeveloped?) prefrontal cortex around a moral protagonist who is not able to make rational judgments.  If we don't let Utena choose her own sex partners, why should we let her choose her own clothing, her own gender role, her own reaction to the duels, her own disposition towards Anthy, etc.?  Are you saying that we can't ascribe agency to Utena at all?  Or is sex a special case as far as the prefrontal cortex is concerned?  I understand how sex can be a special case as far as socialization is concerned, but brain development?

satyreyes wrote:

Are you saying that we can't ascribe agency to Utena at all?  Or is sex a special case as far as the prefrontal cortex is concerned?  I understand how sex can be a special case as far as socialization is concerned, but brain development?

Brain development is important insofar as it contributes to the capacity for judgment. I'm saying that the rationale behind the age of consent is that they're not developed to the point of making mature and capable decisions regarding sexuality, especially in the case of a significant power differential - at least in the eye of the law. Sex with a minor is perceived as thus perceived as exploitation under any circumstances.

I emphasize again that I DON'T, in my own personal view, believe that Akio raped Utena. Did he exploit her? Yes. He abused his power over a relatively immature person to manipulate her into sex. But in my view, she made a very conscious decision that played an intrinsic role to her development. To claim that she was forced deprives her of her agency.

That's my personal view, but I wanted to address why the age of consent exists and why the issue of statutory rape is debatable. In a topic rich with ambiguity and gray area, I think it's especially important/interesting to explore the logic behind the counterarguments.

Last edited by Katzenklavier (09-15-2013 12:00:54 AM)

Katzenklavier wrote:

He plays around with adulthood like a useful tool and entertaining, just as he does the ideals of youth. But he isn't an adult. He's a child - sensual, curious, and completely egocentric - in the body of a magical gay porn star.[

(...)

Anyone up for my undeveloped prefrontal cortex argument=statutory rape argument? Utena is too young to make rational judgments? After all, the age of consent isn't purely random.

I think we're forgetting here, also, that the age of consent defined by a society isn't just about sex. It is, by merit of the agency bestowed when it's reached, the age at which a society thinks a person is mature enough to survive alone within it. And where it does concern sex, the question is more of whether a person is deemed old enough to deal with the repercussions of poor sexual decisions. That's a cynical thing to say, but the age of consent isn't exactly the border between tons of dangerous unprotected adolescent sex and totally mature condom-wearings consequence-aware college sex. The age of consent is a legal boundary in the most technical sense, but culturally I think most view it as the border between where a bad decision is societies/mom's/dad's/the education's system's fault and where it's your own damn problem so deal with it.

Approached from that point of view, it's not an age thing anymore, it's a maturity thing. There are definitely prefrontal cortex issues there. If you go the operations approach, Piaget's age of consent would land around 12, which is the entry into formal operations. The point where the ability to abstract realizes itself, and where a person is expected to take a general principle like 'unprotected sex is bad' and specify it to a consequence, 'it might give me STDs.' That's a very broad definition for maturity though, and misses finer points like the degree of abstraction a person is capable of. The problem is at what point do we all agree a person can handle information complicated enough to make very adult decisions? Some are ready for that at 13. Some aren't ready for that at 23. The prefrontal cortex develops more or less at an expected rate, but a person's ability to use it? That's a variable we have no way of enforcing laws or expectations in society around. The only way to make it work in society is to say 'you're not old enough for driving' because 'you're not mature enough' is much too difficult a thing to test.

Now given all that, is Akio any more prepared to consent to sex than Utena is? Probably not. As much as Akio and Anthy are ancient beings, they're both beings whose development has been completely arrested. Akio is a child in a man's body, full of the ideas a young boy would have about what adults should be like. He lives up to those, but that's because a young boy isn't seeing adulthood as balancing checkbooks, he's seeing it as fast cars and being a pretty cool dude. If anything, Akio's even worse. Utena expects to grow up. She anticipates it and works towards it and is aware of her own lack of maturity with regards to many things. Akio? He thinks he's already there when he isn't. Adulthood to him is exactly what he's made it out to be, with no surprises, and he doesn't expect any change or development from who he is to something more mature. He's a Peter Pan. What's truly unsettling to me about about that is the cynical way the show depicts him interacting with actual adults. They drink his act up, and admire him for things that aren't necessarily admirable traits for an adult to have. Children spend their whole span of youth waiting to become adults, but how many are really satisfied with it when they get there? Akio is easy for an adult to admire, because he makes being an adult look easy. Like we all thought it would be when we were children.

If maturity is how it's decided whether someone can make rational decisions, Akio's as hooped as everyone else on the show.  If the achievement of a certain age is that border, well, he does a bit better. That's how society would see it, too. If he left Ohtori and was hanging around in Tokyo, he would be assumed to have the capacity to make these complex decisions. That's the best we can do, but we know it's a faulty system. How many times have you dealt with a fully grown adult with their own credit cards, mortgages, and vehicles and thought 'Jesus this asshole acts like a 10 year old?'

satyreyes wrote:

If we don't let Utena choose her own sex partners, why should we let her choose her own clothing, her own gender role, her own reaction to the duels, her own disposition towards Anthy, etc.?  Are you saying that we can't ascribe agency to Utena at all?  Or is sex a special case as far as the prefrontal cortex is concerned?  I understand how sex can be a special case as far as socialization is concerned, but brain development?

I think we're, meaning to or not, differentiating sex because we're treating it like an all or nothing boundary. Clothing decisions, gender role, and reaction to outside forces are all things that are a development process. We expect girls her age to experiment with clothing, or change widely in how they react to their world. We even expect some experimentation with gender identity as a normal thing. We should be placing the same expectations on sex, because sex is also a developmental process. We're kind of not doing that because one minute she's LALALALA WHAT PENISES GO WHERE? LOL NO WAY and the next she's got one lodged in her girlybits. We really don't see any kind of healthy gradual development of a sexual identity. She goes from a childlike adoration of a hero figure to being a sexually active teenager. That wasn't healthy.

Granted, the show probably didn't have the means or permission to depict a healthy developing of sexual identity. We weren't, and shouldn't have been, shown scenes of her learning to masturbate, or even experimenting with friends. But more subtle signs? We don't get those either. Contrast her to Wakaba, who despite having what will no doubt be completely disastrous taste in men, is developing in a comparatively healthy sexual way. She has a crush on Saionji, it's childlike and she's completely smitten. That gets rather brutally stomped out...twice. Her next crush is Akio, and that one is much more healthy for a girl her age, and shows a development of perspective. She's attracted to him, but knows he's out of reach (for better reasons than Saionji was.) She still pursues him, badgering him into a drive in his car, knowing it was going to be the experience of being alone with an adult, a male one, that would be the adventure. Wakaba certainly did not think she would have sex with him, and I doubt she really would have wanted to. The flirting with it, so to speak, and the experimenting with the lead up to it, was what she was after. When she got it, and it was over, she savored what it was and moved on, knowing that this was not a life or death situation, and that Akio wasn't what she wanted to take home to mom.

Utena's seduction is especially jarring for us as viewers because not only is she not, to our minds, old enough for it, but she's just plain sexually ignorant. Kozue is younger and yet most of us don't really bat an eyelash when she walks off with Akio. Why? Because she knows what's going to happen. Whether she's cognitively mature enough for it or not, Kozue is not in any way ignorant as to how events may play out and what their respective roles will be in them. Utena? She thought she was going to deliver some roses.

Katzenklavier wrote:

That's my personal view, but I wanted to address why the age of consent exists and why the issue of statutory rape is debatable. In a topic rich with ambiguity and gray area, I think it's especially important/interesting to explore the logic behind the counterarguments.

Hellz yeah. This thread's definitely making me develop and reframe a lot of my views about Akio and Utena and Anthy. I haven't changed my mind about the basics, but the finer points are definitely shifting around. It's always good to see the other viewpoints from a place of them also being valid. It's one of the things I love about this forum. (Believe me, we think we're bickering but you should see how rape conversations go ANYWHERE else )

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

What's more, Saionji is doing his best to support his friend.  He tries to talk to Touga about the situation, but I get the impression that he realizes that fighting Touga on a decision either isn't going to do anyone any good.  Touga has his own reasons for fighting Utena, and for going to see Akio, and so the only thing that Saionji can do is to go along and hope he can do something helpful.

Definitely a support situation. You do something hard, scary, you kinda want a friend by your side, even if they can't help you, even if they can't change how things play out. Saionji is, despite himself, actually a good friend, and probably insisted on going, because he knew damn well Touga wasn't going to ask for that kind of support. But he also wasn't going to refuse if Saionji invited himself. By that point, they've talked enough that whether he says so explicitly or not, Saionji can see Touga isn't happy with the position he's in with Akio, and going with him was really all he could do to help.

They are very much opposites and you wonder sometimes how they can manage to be friendly ever at all without tearing each other's throats out. But it's exactly that that makes them so fascinating. By the end, you know they really, truly are friends. Confidants for each other, people who see what the other is, has done, and forgives them for it. Saionji knows Touga's done manipulative, cruel things to him. He knows why. Touga? He knows Saionji beat on Anthy. And he gets it. Hell he probably sympathizes. They're two people who can see the absolute worst about each other from a distance because they're so unalike. But that distance is the perspective the other needs. It's really quite touching.

Touching. Ahem.

Giovanna wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

If we don't let Utena choose her own sex partners, why should we let her choose her own clothing, her own gender role, her own reaction to the duels, her own disposition towards Anthy, etc.?  Are you saying that we can't ascribe agency to Utena at all?  Or is sex a special case as far as the prefrontal cortex is concerned?  I understand how sex can be a special case as far as socialization is concerned, but brain development?

. . .  We really don't see any kind of healthy gradual development of a sexual identity. She goes from a childlike adoration of a hero figure to being a sexually active teenager. That wasn't healthy.

I couldn't agree more!  But what you're describing is not, as far as I know, a brain development phenomenon, but a socialization phenomenon.  As you point out, maybe for Kozue we could talk about brain development, because she has the sexual identity that Utena lacks, an unhealthy identity though it is.  But we wonder whether Akio rapes Utena because Utena is so sexually innocent (which is to say, undersocialized compared to the likes of Kozue), not because we think Utena has an underdeveloped brain that robs her of agency.  That's all I was disagreeing with Katz over.  The reason this is an important point to me is that if Utena lacks agency then SKU is not a meaningful story about choices, since people without agency can't make choices by definition.  By contrast, if Utena has agency but was seduced into sex before she was really ready, then the Apocalypse Arc is very much a meaningful story about choices, beginning with the fallout from her decision to sleep with Akio.

Gio wrote:

Akio is a child in a man's body, full of the ideas a young boy would have about what adults should be like. He lives up to those, but that's because a young boy isn't seeing adulthood as balancing checkbooks, he's seeing it as fast cars and being a pretty cool dude. If anything, Akio's even worse.
<Skip>
He's a Peter Pan. What's truly unsettling to me about about that is the cynical way the show depicts him interacting with actual adults. They drink his act up, and admire him for things that aren't necessarily admirable traits for an adult to have.

With possible exception of the Vice Principal, those adults who 'admire' him admires only his hot bod (yes, I'm including you, Guidance Counselor who admires the AC's 'sense of style').

But supposing Akio really is that childlike in mind, then couldn't it be argued that Akio is a victim of (repeated) sexual advantage-taking from both Kanae and Mrs. Ohtori?  These women both do blatantly coerce him for sex while putting themselves in a position of power over him (Kanae stressing her family spending huge sums on him, while her mom flat out states that he's nothing without the Ohtori Clan) . . .


Kanae (thought bubble): Inviting your sister's under-aged tart friend over to stay in your feeble attempt to keep my pussy at bay, huh?    See if I don't sic Mommy Dearest on you


Mrs Ohtori (thought bubble):  19 yr old college stud son-in-law offends daughter by inviting under-aged tart over to stay overnight, night after night?   It looks like this is my lucky day! I'll take 'The Rapist' over the Planetarium for a 'talking-to' . . .

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-15-2013 11:18:44 AM)

Lurv wrote:

(While we're on the subject of Kanae, I like to think that Akio just can't get it up unless the sex is taboo enough. Which is why he has little interest in Kanae that way. )

Now, now pre-marriage sex/making out on its own is frowned upon by Japanese polite society in the 90s, so the compromising scene Utena and Anthy saw them in was indeed compromising.  Then again, canon Kanae is the kind of girl who's already complaining about Akio not spending 'enough time' with her like 5 minutes after making out with the guy.  Maybe Akio avoids her cause he's worried that she'd eventually drain him dry

Giovanna wrote:

Now given all that, is Akio any more prepared to consent to sex than Utena is? Probably not. As much as Akio and Anthy are ancient beings, they're both beings whose development has been completely arrested. Akio is a child in a man's body, full of the ideas a young boy would have about what adults should be like. He lives up to those, but that's because a young boy isn't seeing adulthood as balancing checkbooks, he's seeing it as fast cars and being a pretty cool dude. If anything, Akio's even worse. Utena expects to grow up. She anticipates it and works towards it and is aware of her own lack of maturity with regards to many things. Akio? He thinks he's already there when he isn't. Adulthood to him is exactly what he's made it out to be, with no surprises, and he doesn't expect any change or development from who he is to something more mature. He's a Peter Pan. What's truly unsettling to me about about that is the cynical way the show depicts him interacting with actual adults. They drink his act up, and admire him for things that aren't necessarily admirable traits for an adult to have. Children spend their whole span of youth waiting to become adults, but how many are really satisfied with it when they get there? Akio is easy for an adult to admire, because he makes being an adult look easy. Like we all thought it would be when we were children.

If maturity is how it's decided whether someone can make rational decisions, Akio's as hooped as everyone else on the show.  If the achievement of a certain age is that border, well, he does a bit better. That's how society would see it, too. If he left Ohtori and was hanging around in Tokyo, he would be assumed to have the capacity to make these complex decisions. That's the best we can do, but we know it's a faulty system. How many times have you dealt with a fully grown adult with their own credit cards, mortgages, and vehicles and thought 'Jesus this asshole acts like a 10 year old?'

My opinion? Akio isn't anything like a Peter Pan.

Akio's development isn't arrested. He's not a child god in the body of an adult. He's an old god who is keenly aware of both what children aspire to be and what adults wish they could be, and he behaves the way he does because it gets him what he wants.

This line "How many times have you dealt with a fully grown adult with their own credit cards, mortgages, and vehicles and thought 'Jesus this asshole acts like a 10 year old?" doesn't seem to apply to Akio to me. He has composure far beyond what a child typically has, even when faced with things that are contrary to his expectations or even his desires, and he usually deals with these situations in a very rational if Machiavellian manner.

This doesn't make him infallible, far from it. He still makes what most of us would consider to be poor decisions and his moral center is skewed from what we typically consider mature.

Of course, I see him in a much more unforgiving light than many in the fandom, so take that with a grain of salt.

Last edited by Ashnod (09-15-2013 12:59:03 PM)