Atropos wrote:

The worst part is that she shows no signs of having changed beyond shifting her attentions from Akio to Utena.

Really? I thought the fact that she actually went out to search for Utena after telling Akio he sucked (albeit in a more ladylike way) showed a big change of character. I guess we don't know for sure if she's become a morally better person, but she did become more assertive and hopeful.

Whatever power Akio may have over her, Anthy is ultimately responsible for his being in that state to begin with - and don't say it was for his own good, she says she only did it so she could have him to herself. Besides that, she torments Nanami and Saionji without any direction from Akio simply for being stupid teenagers.

Aelanie wrote:

Also, Utena didn't die.

She 'died' within Ohtori.

Atropos wrote:

Whatever power Akio may have over her, Anthy is ultimately responsible for his being in that state to begin with - and don't say it was for his own good, she says she only did it so she could have him to herself.

I figure it was a bit of both. I mean, she wanted him for herself obviously, but he was also dying.

And I would say Akio has some responsibility for being as he is as well. Isn't one of the themes that you chose your own destiny or whatever?

Atropos wrote:
The worst part is that she shows no signs of having changed beyond shifting her attentions from Akio to Utena.

I have to agree with this one.  If she has indeed become a morally superior person after she stopped being the Rose Bride, she would have compensated Kanae for the hurt she caused the girl, or at least try warning the main cast to flee Ohtori.  As it is, she simply leaves them there in danger's way while she goes after Utena - the only one she is shown caring for post "revolution".

Lurv wrote:
I guess we don't know for sure if she's become a morally better person, but she did become more assertive and hopeful.

We must remember, that Anthy was shown to be to be both brave and assertive in the "beginning".  Her assertiveness was what got her defending a sick Dios from the rabid mob (although Dios wanted to keep exerting himself for them) - it's what got her pierced by the Swords of Hate to begin with.  During the Ohtori period, she suppresses her assertive side in her Rose Bride role thinking it will help Akio become Dios (whom she wants to resurrect) again.  Thus, after Utena shows herself being more worthy of her affections by near-ending of Ep 39, she simply loses her Rose Bride role and allows her old self (including the bravery and assertiveness) to come back to the surface, thus the TV ending we got.

As for the "hopefulness" . . . I see it as being a part of her strong "determination" - a thing I see her having both before, during, and after her "Rose Bride period".

Is Anthy the villian of SKU . . . well, is Akio the villain of SKU?  I see the siblings as being 2 halves of the same yin/yang sign - both equally manipulative, equally cruel, with one embodying female gender role taken to destructive extreme, and the other embodying the same for the male gender role.  The only difference is that Anthy got to bond with someone who accepts her at her worst and still willing to offer her love (thus breaking her shell/coffin), Akio never met anyone who would/could do that for him.

Lurv wrote:

Yes, but that was then. After years of being punished by the swords of hate, it makes sense that she lost most of that spirit. Until Utena woke her up from her coffin.

I see Utena making Anthy again the person she once was before the Rose Bride role; I also see this awakened Anthy being fully capable of succumbing to the same mistakes she made in the past (and possibly becoming evil again), as there's no indication that post-Rose-Bride Anthy is much different than pre-Rose Bride Anthy.

One thing I like about the movie vs the show, is that the movie removes Akio from being anything but Anthy's (and everyone else's collective) neuroses. and guilt. In the TV version, we're left feeling positive but with no real evidence that Anthy hasn't, say, simply transfered her excuses and subservience onto Utena now. She may still be a complete evil ass. I mean, she smiles nice and walks kinda chipper but she always did.

By actively making Akio le Ghost of Christmas Fuck Everybody, the movie removes a major excuse and encourages us to view each character as largely independent operators, primarily responsible for their own actions, behavior, and interactions with other people. It isn't just the removal of real Akio, but also the shift in the dynamics between Miki and his sister, between Shiori and Juri, as well, or the fact that Touga is explicitly dead through the entire movie. Miki and Juri are both, in the movie, trying to distance themselves from dead pasts which are only significant by virtue of what the people involves place in them, and so, too, this is Anthy's situation.

(The ghosting of Akio and Touga, and non-presence of teachers, also removes the only notable authority in the SKU-verse, leaving us with a manipulated teenaged girl, Shiori, as the real villain who cannot stop acting out even when there is no longer any true stimuli for her behavior, just ghosts, memories, and reflexes.)

Last edited by Decrescent Daytripper (12-08-2012 07:43:38 AM)

Aelanie wrote:

She has moved on, is focused on her search for a true prince - the duel game that she is orchestrating in the movie of her own will - and is much, much better off because of it.

I guess that's why some people see the movie as a prequel.

Aelanie wrote:

Lurv wrote:

Aelanie wrote:

She has moved on, is focused on her search for a true prince - the duel game that she is orchestrating in the movie of her own will - and is much, much better off because of it.

I guess that's why some people see the movie as a prequel.

You mean a sequel? A prequel is about events that happen before the original work. Anyway, the series and the movie are completely different continuities, as Anthy's starkly different backstories in each version prove (among many other details).

Yeah, I mistyped. I meant a sequel in the spiritual sense, since movie!Anthy is searching for her prince like series!Anthy is at the end of the show. ;)

Lurv wrote:

Aelanie wrote:

Lurv wrote:

I guess that's why some people see the movie as a prequel.

You mean a sequel? A prequel is about events that happen before the original work. Anyway, the series and the movie are completely different continuities, as Anthy's starkly different backstories in each version prove (among many other details).

Yeah, I mistyped. I meant a sequel in the spiritual sense, since movie!Anthy is searching for her prince like series!Anthy is at the end of the show. ;)

Ahh, I see. Well, it's always an interesting question as to what themes the Be-Papas had in their minds as they were dreaming up the movie, but to me...at the end of the series, Anthy knows that Utena isn't a fairy-tale prince. She leaves Ohtori to search for Utena knowing that. Maybe she has come to accept they can't exist, or simply that she herself doesn't need one, she only needs Utena, the flesh-and-blood human being. Either way, Anthy goes to find Utena knowing she doesn't fit that ideal.

On the other hand, Movie Anthy sees almost immediately that Movie Utena is the prince that she's been waiting for - or rather, that Utena could become so with the help of some emotional therapy and benevolent goading, both of which Anthy provides. Right up until the Car Wash Scene, Anthy has Utena cast firmly in her mind as her prince-to-be, and finally even declares straight out that Utena has succeeded in attaining it. However, Utena decides to reject that role when offered, and pulls them both toward an entirely different fate.

It's such a total contrast. In the series, Anthy would never acknowledge that Utena could become a prince. In the movie, Anthy doesn't just acknowledge the possibility, she takes active steps to make sure it actually occurs!

Last edited by Aelanie (12-08-2012 11:01:26 AM)

Lurv wrote:

TRUE, that is kind of significant.

In either case, though, Utena's not a replacement. At least that's how I see it.

I don't think Anthy see Utena as a replacement either, but rather a superior love target to what Dios was to her.

I believe that often times, when a person believes that they can love only one specific someone and no one else, it's only because they have yet to encounter another person who possess qualities that make them "even better" by the lover's (whether self-conscious or not) calculating mind. 

Let's look at the "calculations" through Anthy's eyes:

Dios   = Noble + Brave + Self-sacrificing + Male + Familiarity
Utena = Noble + Brave + Self-sacrificing - Female (since Anthy "was" straight) + Being Understanding
            + Boundlessly Forgiving(only discovered after Duel Revolution)

It's not hard to see why Anthy jumped ship in the end.

That does not mean that the way Anthy loves can just simply change just because she now loves Utena and not Dios, especially not when SKU ended on a note where Anthy still cares only for one single person (used to be Dios, now Utena), and that her saying Utena without sama (when she sama-ed Utena only to confuse/manipulate the girl into acting as per Akio's designs throughout the show, and not because she truly respected the latter) is basically an extension of her no longer mentally loyal to Akio. 

Realistically speaking, there should be a lot of rocky grounds both TV Utena and Anthy still have to cover (probably more than even what lied between Juri and Shiori, whose situation is relatively simple in that they are both humans, and are really of the same age) before reaching a stable, workable point in their relationship.

KaleMarsh wrote:
I think a lot of people think of Anthy as less of a villain because she doesn't get off scot-free.  She bears unending pain in Akio's place, over and over.

In absolute fairness, isn't the reverse also true?

We see Anthy using her body doing a lot of things for Akio . . . but what about Akio dropping to his knees in sexual submission to Mrs. Ohtori?  Isn't that also a self-sacrificing act that can ensure both he and his sister can use Ohtori as den (for continued survival, for a "base" to realize their mutual quest to awake Dio's power)?

Watch Anthy's psychological tormenting of Kanae since far before the black rose episode - the wiping her glasses on the gift scarf and assorted pettiness - how much of it is Akio's wish, who much of it is Anthy's, how much of it is Anthy making Akio believe that it is his own wish? 

By Anthy's treatment of Kanae, her keeping Utena from being close to Akio (even though she sent Utena to get raped for the sake of furthering the quest for Dios' awakening, she will not tolerate Utena being emotionally close to her brother and thus risk breaking his shell), and her fixing the 2nd Touga duel (like she fixed every duel for her own purpose, not Akio's, as evidenced by Ep 25) such that Akio lost emotional communication with the boy for like 13 ep . . . I see that she is fiercely keeping her brother from developing any emotional bonds with others (while pure sexual/blatant manipulative relationships are okay), to the point that the "devil" is left with no one there to open his closed heart.  Sure, Akio himself must bear the blunt of his own damning actions, but what Anthy did, dosn't that also contributed a lot to Akio's "unrevolutionized" status by the end of the tv show?

There can be no "Utena-for-Akio" showing up to engage Akio sincerely, to see him at his worst and still forgive, because Anthy is there making sure that her brother is trapped by her just like he has trapped her.

Ep 35:
Akio:  But a star is a star. It belongs to nobody.
Akio:  It belongs to nobody.
Anthy (vapid):  Good night, brother.
Akio (frowning in angst):  How much longer are you still going to make me suffer? (from my VCR copy)
(Anthy's lips tensed into a flat line.)

Note Anthy's reaction here: not hurt, not confusion, not anger reacted against some obvious lie . . . it was a "tense defensiveness" - a telling sign she herself believes Akio's accusation is true.

We also must remember that Anthy bears the pain of the Swords not for Akio, but for her own focused, exclusion to all else love of Dios.  There is nothing really noble about her action in taking the Swords of Hate: it is a fulfillment of a self-centered, selfish wish on her own part: "I wanted to keep Dios from harm, I now want to resurrect him; I will help this monster now having taken his place to hurt other people, if hurting other people is the means to bring back the Dios I love.  I will bear suffering, and will make others suffer too, just so I can have what I want."

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (12-12-2012 07:53:35 PM)

KaleMarsh wrote:

t's common for fans to see her as a lesser antagonist than Akio.  Is it a correct interpretation?  Is it a correct interpretation?  Utena's forgiveness says it is, but she's fallible.  This notion just seems to be the prevailing one that I've seen.

We should note that Utena doesn't really get to know, or be emotionally close-knited to Akio - whom she meet via formal advice sessions and dates (during which both parties are showing only their best "sides" to each other) - as she does with Anthy (who shares her dorm room and later the tower bedroom, and the same classes, and the same social settings in and out of school for a long period of time).  Even after the sex, Utena still is emotionally way closer to Anthy (close soulmate) than Akio (distant princely ideal and object of desire).  Having known only a part of the truth till the very end, the girl is not a good judge on which of these siblings are more/less evil than the other.

That, and most fans judge a character more on gender, age and mannerism than their actual action.  Akio being a towering man and Anthy donning a petite teen girl guise makes it seem like the latter is the more vulnerable one, but let's remember that both are likely ancient deities (or at least as old as people from the Nemuro era).  That, and Anthy is really "Mamiya", who was blatantly vicious and malevolent throughout his scenes in the BR Arc. 

Imagine this: what if Anthy always looks like her threateningly sensual hair down witch self, and always use Mamiya-ruthless expressions?  That, and Akio dons his Dios boy guise for the entire show.  Even if both characters are to perform the exact same acts throughout the show, no doubt many fans will now view them very differently.