I do have to say, I don't really feel annoyed with Saionji, and for the same reasons you mentioned. One, the series doesn't shove his OMG PAIN down our throats to begin with, if anything makes him unsympathetic. We don't even know the extent to which its all about Touga until a bit later; at first it's just OMG ANTHY U HOR. That, and I have a personal theory that the series was hinting at Saionji just not growing up well at all, and having the one friend who doesn't treat you like crap for being poor, etc. reveal himself to think that he's better than everyone...that'll stick with you more, especially if you have to stay around him and thus the reminders are daily.

I have to agree, I really don't miss the kiss perse, and think the series is better off without it. I can interpret their relationship as either the purest friendship ever or a romantic relationship either way depending on what fic I'm writing, or not even address it if I'm writing gen. It was nice when writing The Cycle to focus on just what was happening and not have to feel like I needed to throw in something like OKAY BTW THEYRE TOTALLY BANGING THROUGH THIS K?!?!?! Utena and Anthy can just...be. Kind of reminds me of my sister and her *cough* "friend." Sure, it's there, but it doesn't have to be said right now. I think that's what I like the most about it; there's room to explore, tension, and mystery. Fics where Anthy and Utena have big mushy post-Ohtori relationship to me are usually absolutely boring because it's all out in the open and with none of the issues(which should not be true).
Agreed, I think Saito did issue her ultimatum more on "Homos are icky and that's not how real shoujo goes" than anything actually insightful about storytelling. And it just aggravates me in general that someone who's so BAD at it dictated anything to Ikuhara. Fine, leave. He'll find another generic shoujo mangaka.

Edited for Grammar Fail.

Last edited by Frau Eva (11-22-2009 07:59:38 AM)

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

This explained must be?  I assume it's because of his....taciturn... behavior regarding questioning.

Well, I like how he wasn't afraid of doing something new, breaking the stereotypes and stuff.

But this guy is the biggest troll ever! He admited it himself

alexielnet wrote:

I think one of the things that pisses me off most in both the anime and the manga are the scenes in which Nanami and Juri (respectively) blame Utena for Touga getting hurt by Saionji. Never mind that it was Saionji who cut him or that Utena did not ask for help. It's so irrational and misogynistic. Saiomji can't be blamed because he has man-urges that can't be helped but Utena should have been able to... what, protect herself from a surprise attack? It is pure victim-blaming and that really sucks.

Oh yeah, I mean, for Nanami it was more about her own fucked up relationship with her brother as to why she wanted to blame Utena -something Touga uses to his advantage- then any overt sexism on her part (She needs a reason to be angry with Utena and bring her down, because she doesn't want to believe that Touga protected her because he cares about her, so she tries to frame the situation to make Utena appear to be a heartless, manipulative temptress.  Yeah okay still sexist, but at least the series doesn't support this reasoning.  And another part of me wonders if she is unaware of the tension between Touga and Saionji.  I think she may still believe they are friends in order to better suit her brother's benevolent image, and could have also been trying to protect Saionji's image to the school and to herself by placing the blame on Utena.), but Juri?  Oh wait, MANGA Juri. 

Sexism in the manga?  Surprise.





And Tatty, I still don't get what you mean.  I'm not super-familiar with trolls, but aren't they just an internet nuisance?

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (11-22-2009 05:24:02 PM)

Yeah, putting some of the cast in middle school was the dumbest thing ever. The problems they go through seem way too mature for kids of that age.

Though to be honest, I was an early bloomer and fairly developed by 13, so it's not completely unusual about their figures. Still, it's not like that's the norm for most girls.

The fact that I just don't like the majority of the characters. As much as I love the actual anime, it does make it hard viewing at times.
Hence why I will never be a fan of SaionGa yaoi, sad to say. Amongst other things.

Haha, how could I forget those uniforms? They're HIDEOUS. I think I glossed over it a bit because there's a lot of Catholic schools in my area, I went to one...and most of them are just ugly(navy and white houndstooth SHORTS were ours; I was the only girl to wear the long pants associated with the guys mainly because it was the only option that wasn't fugly). Although nothing tops Haruka and Michiru's school uniforms in Sailor Moon. I can't even say that it looks like a blind person made it; someone blind would at least get one thing to look good out of pure chance. Someone went out of their way to make them look as heinous as possible.

I think if I were to ask Ikuhara anything, it would be what the hell was up with the uniforms. Because anything of any depth he's just not going to answer, and I genuinely want to know what the heck happened. Because it's obvious that style went into the other uniforms and...

Wait...I just realized the the character designs were originally developed by Saito. I BLAME HER FOR EVERYTHING BAD EVER.

The characters being unlikable as real people for some reason makes it better. They're like a screwed up psychological puzzle I can pick at. Hey, I don't have to date them, just write about them.

Tamago wrote:

We all know that for Touga and Akio, their favourite duelling weapon is the Pork Sword.

holy shit, that made me laugh!!

the thing that pissed me off so much was that anthy was a huge back-stabbing bitch.

Haha, Anthy turning out to be not what she appears is the thing that made me love this show! 

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Haha, Anthy turning out to be not what she appears is the thing that made me love this show! 

Seconded! In fact, I disliked Anthy before we found out how cruel she could really be. Life really shaped her into the way she is now, and if she had remained sweet and innocent and shy all though the series, I would have hated her for being such a boring character.

minervana wrote:

I get a bit exasperated with the recycled footage. I understand they were under severe budget constraints, so I'm not blaming them per se. That the creators were able to do so much with it speaks to their inventiveness. But I still sometimes wish that they could have found some money, some how.

Bake sale?

(I am honestly not mocking you, minervana! That was just the first idea that came to mind, I swear!)

Frau Eva wrote:

Lastly, the more I watch the show, the more Juri and Shiori annoy the shit out of me. Juri, we've all been through it, but really, YEARS? You basically act like a frosty bitch all the time to everyone because a girl didn't like you in middle school. Get over it. Go listen to some My Chemical Romance, dear God. Shiori wasn't even at the same school for a couple of years, and you didn't change at all.  And it's not even like it's this is a one-in-a-lifetime girl you're missing out on. Hmm, a girl so crushingly insecure that she'll basically lie and cheat and do whatever she can just so someone with a penis will pay attention to her. That's a totally rare and valuable commodity there.

See, that's actually one of the things I really LIKED about the series.  Not just Juri/Shiori, but the fact that the problems the duelists (except maybe Touga) want to solve with the power of revolution are petty personal problems.  This rings true, I think, in the context of adolesence:  from the outside, or once the person experiencing it has grown up, they're small, insignificant problems.  But when you're a teenager and living through it?  It's world shattering.  Moreover, the duelists' inability to get over these problems is kind of the driving force behind most of the action in the series, so as annoying as it might be to see them tread over the same issue without making any progress, it is kind of necessary.

***

As far as my problems with the series go, I'll chime in with the annoyance about the animation and get that out of the way.  I watched a lot of 90's anime with crappy art, and Utena's not the worst out there; the inconsistency is what annoys me.  Sometimes the art is fucking gorgeous, and sometimes it's like the interns were drawing it while tripping on peyote.  I would have rather seen it be mediocre throughout, at least then I wouldn't have gotten my hopes up.  Other problems are more specific, such as:

-Touga's injury in episode 9.  This has always annoyed me.  For one, Touga doesn't bleed.  Well, that's par for the course in SKU, but there's not even any indication that the sword broke skin.  It just looks like Saionji sliced a hole in his shirt.  And how exactly did Touga's arm get injured?  The slice went right down the middle of his back, nowhere near his right arm.  And yet he comes out of the infirmary with it in a sling.  Huh?

-Anthy's hair.  Is it like Movie!Utena's hair, only growing long at important points in the plot?  Is it put up around her head like some weird neck-brace/bun?  Does she have a secret stash of purple hair extensions or something?

And then there's Chu-chu.  Just...chu-chu.  I always fast forward through all the scenes he's in.  At best he adds nothing to the scene, at worst he totally ruins the mood.  Screw cute mascots.

Speaking of ruining the mood, to be honest how silly it got pissed me off because I've always tried to show it to someone, and NO ONE can take it seriously. Like with the movie, there's just parts that they didn't have to do. Like change the car to look very phallic, or when Makio jumps over the car, or the fact that the castle on big ass wheels or even small stuff like this.

I mean granted, it's exaggerated for a purpose, or it's comic relief, but it totally destroys the mood of seriousness. I remember a post somewhere about Tezuka even adding little things to be comedic in his manga(I think it was in the manga thread) and it screwing up the atmosphere, and I agree.(Like in Buddha, he just had to have a scene with Black Jack healing someone.) I dunno, I like that stuff for the fun episodes like the Curry High Trip, but not when it's supposed to be a serious moment.

Last edited by Setsuna (12-04-2009 02:40:22 PM)