This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top05-04-2011 01:42:06 PM

Overlord Morgus
Banned
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 314

What does everyone think of political correctness?

I've come to see the necessity of it. Or rather, I don't really buy the "freedom of speech" arguments against it.

There are all different kinds of proscribed speech in any society: excessive criticism of norms, of one's peer group, and deviations from consensus. Most of the anti-PC people have no problem with these limitations; it's only when norms encourage them to suppress hostility to the marginal that they become enraged.

tl;dr The people most opposed to political correctness are the very people who least understand the freedom they claim to care aobut so much.

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#2 | Back to Top05-05-2011 10:54:42 PM

PrettyPeopleWithSwords
Rose Smilee
Registered: 05-26-2010
Posts: 131

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

Nicely said! Honestly I came in here thinking that it'd be another complaint about PCness but this forum is too good for that obviously. emot-biggrin

Can we complain about specific phrases we hate? 'Cuz I really hate it when people call Native Americans "Indians." Firstly, if you are ever around actual people-from-India Indians, it's really confusing. Secondly, it's just . . . wrong! It makes no sense and it's a holdover from some dopey Italian guy's mistake and it's wrong, why use it ever? Bleh.

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#3 | Back to Top05-06-2011 03:16:15 PM

Prince_of_Stars
Someday Shiner
From: The Hellsing Organization
Registered: 06-12-2008
Posts: 4165
Website

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

That's true. I actually don't like the term African-American. I'm nowhere near from Africa; black works for me. I also don't like how the term Hispanic is used to cover Latin Americans; they have their own title. People from Spain are Hispanics. Kind of like that calling Dominicans Cubans or Mexicans Puerto Ricans and stuff.


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Sir Hellsing: Leader of the Feminine Failure Revolution
Faithfully failing at feminine tasks, gender roles, and the conventionality of femininity since 1990.

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#4 | Back to Top05-06-2011 09:44:13 PM

Frau Eva
Voodoo Queen
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 803

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

Agreed. It's totally legal for you to say racist bullshit, and it's also totally legal for me to call you an asshole/boycott you/pressure whoever put you on the air to take you off(after all, the Constitution doesn't guarantee you a show; otherwise, I'd have one).

I totally agree with the "indian" thing; it's nonsensical and confusing. But as for the term Hispanic, if it's supposed to be just people from Spain, why can't Spanish work just as well? Spanish people are such a rare occurance here that it would seem silly to give them another name. Also, Latino TECHNICALLY can be applied to any country mainly populated by speakers of a Latin-descended language. If I wanted to be kind of shitty about it I could probably argue that since Louisiana still has plenty of French speakers, it is technically a part of Latin America. emot-tongue

And I have a problem with Latin American or South American in the same way I do African American...it's a mouthful. Speaking of the term African-American, the main reason I hate it is just because it becomes really confusing. Is a black person in the UK an African British? That doesn't even sound right. And the term doesn't technically work for actual Africans who just happen to have moved to America, like the term black does. Honestly, I think you could make a case that they have two separate meanings(black as a general descriptor of distant ancestry no matter the country, African American as a specific racial and cultural group within the black group). I'd tried using in off and one, and generally stopped now because there are just too many moments that stop me dead in my tracks because the word just doesn't make sense there.

I'll add my own PC annoyance: Inuit. It's a word for only one-fourth of the people it supposedly describes. And the word Eskimo isn't used because it MIGHT mean "eaters of raw flesh" in a language long dead. What, like sushi? It...just doesn't seem like that big of a deal, especially when the only alternative is calling any Native Alaskan the name of a specific tribe they probably don't even belong to. Which is confusing. We still call people of Eastern Europe Slavs without anyone flinching, and it derives pretty obviously from the word "slave."


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#5 | Back to Top05-06-2011 10:58:22 PM

CausalityStar
Caretaker
From: Idaho
Registered: 09-12-2010
Posts: 215

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

I think I might agree with you. Usually most of the things anti-PC people have problems with are things such as hate-speech codes, which are sometimes found in the work force or on college campuses. They all vary to the extent that they regulate hate-speech but they usually are against hate speech toward women, racial and ethnic minorities, gay people, ect.

The thing is though, most people think of political correctness as being a liberal thing, but there is a such thing as conservative political correctness and it can sometimes be much more extreme than hate speech codes. The "politically correct" label is really only applied to instances aimed at preventing insensitivity to minority groups.

But, there are many other instances were groups of all political viewpoints have attempted to impose their views on everyone and restrict opposing views. A good example is anytime a book is banned or challenged. There were the people who tried to ban Anne Frank's diary for being, "a real downer". Another thread on this forum has links to an article about people who tried to ban this book because of its "homosexual themes".  If the main thing you noticed when reading that book is Anne Frank briefly talking about how she felt attracted to other girls, then I think you really missed the point.

Other examples include trying to keep the National Institute for the Humanities from funding gay-oriented art. (Or art that is perceived to be gay oriented.) A good example of politically correct behavior was when in 2003 conservative groups pressured CBS into dropping a program about Ronald and Nancy Reagan because it was too critical.

In other words, some people who complain about political correctness that encourages them to not be hostile to minority groups in society and how hate speech codes are a violation of freedom of speech might not have a problem with banning/challenging certain books, artwork, and documentaries that they find offensive. Those things don't usually get stuck with a PC label but in reality they are a different form of political correctness.

As for hate-speech codes, some of them may well be a violation of the First Amendment. That is a difficult issue to figure out, but I think that trying to ban art, books, and documentaries is obviously a violation of the First Amendment. Itís censorship.
My personal opinion on hate speech codes it that they might have a place on college campuses and the workplace because you donít want to have minorities being harassed. Colleges and places where you work should have polices to prevent harassment. At my job meeting today, we were all instructed to go online and complete a long tutorial about preventing harassment in the workplace. However, the hate speech codes shouldnít be really strict because of the danger of that people who get in trouble with them becoming martyrs. For example, some people who have gotten in trouble for saying racist things on college campuses have gotten excessive media attention and have been portrayed as victims.

Last edited by CausalityStar (05-18-2011 04:31:22 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top05-08-2011 04:51:42 PM

Overlord Morgus
Banned
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 314

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

It's better to spam with propaganda than to censor, censorship is easily circumvented and can backfire drastically. Of course, clumsy propaganda can also backfire.

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#7 | Back to Top05-11-2011 09:53:26 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

I have an issue with the very term Political Correctness, since when has politics ever been correct?

It should be termed something like 'Socially Aware Euphemism' instead for the better uses of this form of Newspeak and leave the ironic term 'Political Correctness' for the examples where it goes totally wrong.

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#8 | Back to Top05-18-2011 11:14:07 PM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

I once heard that only an Aquarian (as in astrology) could have come up with the concept and I found that pretty amusing, being an Aquarian myself. emot-biggrin

Meaning Aquarius is the sign of the humanitarianism gone crazy - act for the good of all, try to help people be better people, and go too far and invent a system that shoots itself in the foot by becoming ridiculous. emot-tongue

Having said that, I think PC in moderation has the makings of a good idea that definitely can help people. But PC in the law without PC in people's actual hearts doesn't really have the effect it's meant to.

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#9 | Back to Top10-03-2011 11:22:33 PM

SaionjixAnthy
Mikage Mistruster
From: dueling arena
Registered: 10-01-2011
Posts: 64
Website

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

I don't know what political correctness means, and I only hear conservatives using it, angrily, as if it's a slur. It's a conservative reconstruction of liberal discourse, an illicit move. American conservatives are always ultraconservative, and they hate anything racially or sexually tolerant.


"The bells signal the start of the duel, Anthy! You forget yourself."

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#10 | Back to Top10-04-2011 03:28:46 AM

dirufacade
Ballgoer
From: Baltimore & DC
Registered: 08-03-2011
Posts: 150
Website

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

American conservatives are always ultraconservative, and they hate anything racially or sexually tolerant.

I, too, like to make generalizations about people who are different than me.


~ diru

Don't talk shit. One does not hear about Abraxas by accident.

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#11 | Back to Top10-04-2011 10:20:41 AM

Chrome Homura
Poor Saionji :(
From: Oregon, USA
Registered: 06-07-2010
Posts: 518

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

In light of the above two posts... this is why I dislike the the "party" system in politics. They give people the ability to dismiss others at first glance without actually learning anything important, based on the sole assumption that since they belong to group X, they must automatically believe Y.


I am no longer here. If you wish to find me, my discord username is Heroic_Spirit_Gomikubi.

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#12 | Back to Top10-04-2011 01:29:35 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

I think conservatives can have more variety in their political or social beliefs that we give them credit for.  I know conservatives who take no issue with gay marriage (My dad), those who do but find it morally wrong to prevent them from doing so and thus will not vote in favor of any gay marriage ban (My Mom), and so on. Some of why it appears as though the entirety of the politically right seem to be so extreme is because those assholes are the ones out doing the most atrocious -and thus newsworthy things.  Granted, what matters most is where people's votes are going, so this means it may be erroneous to (spend most of our time and effort) butting heads with and frustrating ourselves over the extremists when it's the less extreme, less heard of majority of conservatives whose votes will have an impact on policies.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (10-04-2011 01:36:34 PM)

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#13 | Back to Top10-04-2011 01:43:05 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

Yeah, real on-the-ground conservatives come in a lot of flavors.  But as for the ones who get elected to high office, I can kind of see where SxA is coming from.  There are still a few moderate conservatives in government, and a few conservatives who don't toe the party line and have some unorthodox opinions, but they're a minority.  In the last debate, Rick Perry, who was thought of as a Tea Party golden boy, said he thought that the children of illegal immigrants should qualify for in-state tuition.  The party establishment abruptly abandoned him and he's way down in the polls.  Real people have a diverse range of opinions, and I think we are better than our politicians are -- but when it comes to politics in practice, we can be pretty polarized.  :-/

Anyway, back on topic.  I would like to know what political correctness is, because I expect that my opinion of it depends on what we mean by it.  My best understanding is that it means, approximately, "self-censorship for the purpose of not gratuitously offending people."  Why don't I curse when I'm at work?  Political correctness; I don't want to gratuitously offend my coworkers.  Why don't I call Asian people "Orientals," even though the word is semantically accurate?  Because calling a person "an Oriental" is sometimes taken as offensive, and regardless of why that should be the case, I don't want to gratuitously offend people.

If that's what political correctness means, I like it -- but I wouldn't want to impose it on anyone.  It's been a journey to get to the point where I don't like to offend people for no reason, and I've learned a lot along the way.  I wouldn't want to frustrate anyone's similar journey by compelling them to speak respectfully.  It could stunt empathy instead of promoting it.  So I guess I disagree with the OP; I don't want to create a class of "proscribed speech," though I think political correctness is valuable.  That's in the public arena, of course.  In the intimate confines of IRG, rules against abuse still apply emot-tongue

On the other hand, some people use "political correctness" to mean that you self-censor so as not to offend anyone ever.  This is both impossible and a bad idea for reasons that I think are probably self-explanatory!

Last edited by satyreyes (10-04-2011 01:46:00 PM)

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#14 | Back to Top10-04-2011 02:02:31 PM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

Political correctness, like everything else, is fine in moderation.  I just don't like it when it's used against people.  Of course, seeing as I have a pretty thick skin, I advocate developing one over telling someone else to use a different term, but I get that that's just as unfair.

I also really love it when people talk about members of political parties as some sort of "other" animal species that needs to be studied and documented.  There was a moment during my ultra-conservative, government-hating phase where I expressed my political and social views and was informed that I wasn't a libertarian simply because I thought the death penalty was okay.  Clearly, one little transgression can ostracize you.  All political parties must be uniform, guys, or the world collapses.

It.  Does.

(I'm still on the fence as to whether or not SxA's post was supposed to be a troll post.)

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#15 | Back to Top10-04-2011 06:51:11 PM

SaionjixAnthy
Mikage Mistruster
From: dueling arena
Registered: 10-01-2011
Posts: 64
Website

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I think conservatives can have more variety in their political or social beliefs that we give them credit for.  I know conservatives who take no issue with gay marriage (My dad), those who do but find it morally wrong to prevent them from doing so and thus will not vote in favor of any gay marriage ban (My Mom), and so on. Some of why it appears as though the entirety of the politically right seem to be so extreme is because those assholes are the ones out doing the most atrocious -and thus newsworthy things.  Granted, what matters most is where people's votes are going, so this means it may be erroneous to (spend most of our time and effort) butting heads with and frustrating ourselves over the extremists when it's the less extreme, less heard of majority of conservatives whose votes will have an impact on policies.

Other than Bertrand Russell, who was very intelligent, Edmund Burke was the last true conservative worth reading.


"The bells signal the start of the duel, Anthy! You forget yourself."

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#16 | Back to Top10-05-2011 02:45:03 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

"Someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made." - Stewart Lee

Also Lee: "There is a whole generation that has confused political correctness with health and safety legislation."

I can't really put my position better than to just post those and under them: "This."


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#17 | Back to Top10-05-2011 08:23:23 AM

wblstudios
Banned
Registered: 08-17-2011
Posts: 564

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

Brief answer: The blatant racism of some sects of the Tea Party have proven that we need some form of political correctness.  But like anything, there are people who overdo it.

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#18 | Back to Top10-08-2011 05:28:55 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

It would be awesome if we didn't need political correctness to be smart and civil with each other, but since that doesn't seem to be the case...


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#19 | Back to Top11-11-2011 09:20:32 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

I am not an authority but someone who seemed to know what he is talking about once said that American Indians prefer to be described by their tribal name in their own language such as Hadenosaunee, Tsalagi, Tohono'O'Odham, etc. If you can't wrap your tongue around those then you can fall back on Iroquoise, Cherokee, and Papago. When generalizing multiple tribes they mostly prefer (American) Indians to Native Americans.

As for the main topic, PC is simply another word for politeness and respect. If it comes to mean shibboleths and code words and euphemisms then the Rightwingers have just as many as anyone else.

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#20 | Back to Top11-12-2011 08:23:14 AM

wblstudios
Banned
Registered: 08-17-2011
Posts: 564

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

I think the horribly insensitive things coming out of the Cain camp over the last week or so prove that there's some need for political correctness.

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#21 | Back to Top11-12-2011 02:57:47 PM

Makubi
Touga Topper
From: SE England
Registered: 10-19-2011
Posts: 56

Re: What does everyone think of political correctness?

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

"Someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made." - Stewart Lee

Also Lee: "There is a whole generation that has confused political correctness with health and safety legislation."

I can't really put my position better than to just post those and under them: "This."

^THIS^

I believe Lee also described PC as ''an (often clumsy) negotiation towards a kind of formally inclusive language'' that always summed it up for me. It might seem weird at first but it's definitely worthwhile.

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