This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top08-10-2008 12:54:59 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Politics

This may not be the smartest thing I've ever done, but I can safely assume it's smarter than that time I put a paperclip in a stage socket.

Satyreyes has been giving us excellent election coverage, and it has been leading us into some tangential political discussions, but I didn't want to derail the ELECTION thread, so I figured I would start a thread for general political discussion. I'm posting this in GD, so BE POLITE. No matter how obvious something may be to you, DO NOT call anyone names, or imply that anyone who thinks something different from you is stupid. We're all friends here, so lets stay that way.

Now that that's out of the way...two distinct issues were recently raised:

1: Reaganomics

2: The advantages of republican vs democratic foreign policy.

Both lengthy subjects, but I'll start with a word about Reaganomics. I'm referring to the economic policy of the Reagan administration, which can be summed up as follows. Don't tax rich folks, because if you don't tax them, they'll spend money and the money will "trickle down" to the poor folks. It fits in nicely with the old conservative maxim of small government, but Reagan didn't really mean small government, he just meant low taxes. He spent more on the military than ever before, but the money...kind of came from nowhere. But that's sort of different from his economic policy. The flaw in Reaganomics is that rich people, like any other society, are interested in self-preservation. In other words, they don't WANT to spread out their riches. I wouldn't either, if I were rich. What I mean is, rich people actually SAVE more money than poor people, who can't really afford it. Now savings are good too, but if the point is to get money to circulate, then savings are going the wrong way. So there's my two cents on that subject, I'll try not to go on too long.

I figure this thread can be a good place for people to ask about any kind of political stuff, or talk about their politics, so lets hear em!


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
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#2 | Back to Top08-10-2008 03:16:27 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Politics

Stormy, I think you misstate the premise of Reaganomics.  The idea is that cutting rich people's taxes gets them to spend more, yes; but generally it's not consumption but investment spending that is principally targeted. 

Generally, raising taxes makes people want to work less.  It's easy to see why; if the government's taking half of every dollar you make, you're less motivated to work hard for an extra $10,000 a year that is really only $5,000 after tax.  Reaganomics tries to take advantage of this principle.  If General Motors and its executives get a lower tax rate, they want to work harder, which for a company means growing the business, opening new plants, etc.  New plants mean new employees -- working- and middle-class people who need jobs.  By contrast, high taxes make it so hard to earn a buck (or a billion, but who's counting) that CEOs might just throw up their hands and say screw it, closing plants to reach a lower level of production -- and costing their workers jobs.

The other thing about high taxes is that they motivate people to look for tax shelters.  Companies and rich individuals will invest more energy in finding ways to hide their money when taxes are high than when they're low.  Between this and increased consumption and investment spending, the government may paradoxically make more money by cutting taxes.  It's related to the phenomenon where if you charge $1 a glass for lemonade, you'll make more money than if you charge $100 a glass (because no one wants to buy $100 lemonade).

I have mixed feelings about Reaganomics, but I wanted to put in my two cents about what its assumptions and objectives are.

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#3 | Back to Top08-10-2008 08:25:48 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Politics

The book I just finished discussed economics as both the golden child of the social sciences and its least successful, because it doesn't sufficiently factor in the psychology of spending and what people are liable to do. And he's right in that economists really do suck. Their power and reputation comes from being the only game in town, otherwise, they wouldn't be so constantly wrong and easily beat by any stock market junkie with a scrap of blind intuition.

It's always seemed to me that Reaganomics would work better if you gave rich people a different incentive to spend. Like...a huge tax on wealth being distributed to your children upon death. Would it ever happen? No. But lowering taxes for them isn't quite going to make them spend more on their jet. Where it concerns the government making more because they don't try as hard to find loopholes...is there any data on that? It makes sense, but at the same time I fail to see why the rich would suddenly stop paying their accountants to find loopholes anyway. That strikes me as where the slip of reason comes in. It's not the job of the wealthy man to find those loopholes, and he's never going to think the paycheck of X accountants can be better saved than spent letting them save him even more.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#4 | Back to Top08-10-2008 09:57:36 PM

Hedgehogey
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 01-30-2008
Posts: 430

Re: Politics

A rising tide lifts all boats...except the ones that sink. Reagonomics rests on a fundamentally naive assumption about the creation of wealth and how it is the wealthy become so. Wealth...true, huge wealth of the kind known to CEOs...is created by exploitation. Workers create and the exploiter class, includings CEOs, siphon off the product of this labor, leaving only enough for the worker to barely scrape by. All that a tax break for the very rich does is encourage them to find more efficient ways of accomplishing this exploitation.

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#5 | Back to Top08-10-2008 11:25:18 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: Politics

Well, it is true that the disparity between the richest and poorest got a little out of control under Reagan...and is getting worse again under Bush. But Satyr is correct, the intent of Reaganomics was to INCREASE tax revenues by decreasing taxes, thus increasing productivity. Within that limited scope, it may have been effective. Even adjusting for inflation, tax revenues actually did increase in the Reagan era. Although part of that is because he actually RAISED payroll taxes (medicare and social security, which are only payed by lower and middle class taxpayers. Tax code is fascinating, it really is).

There is in fact an estate tax. In other words, you must pay a certain percentage of your estate to the government when you die. Naturally, conservatives are trying to eliminate it. At the moment, it only applies to estates exceeding $2 million at the federal level, and people are indeed inventive about finding ways around it. You could even argue that Warren Buffet figured out a way to not pay taxes on most of it, by giving it away.

The success of such a scheme, like most economic policies, lies in finding the right balance. It's true that paying more taxes makes people less ambitious, but as long as government is necessary, it must be funded somehow. My complaint about the conservative political agenda has to do with who is doing the paying more than anything else. And it is also worth noting that Reagan more than tripled the debt the US owes...he ballooned our military budget into the bloated monster it is today.


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
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#6 | Back to Top08-11-2008 12:42:16 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Politics

Let me invert the question.  We've implicitly been asking "why do trickle-down economists want to lower taxes on the rich?"  Instead, let's ask "why would we want to raise taxes on the rich?"

If the answer is "because we need more money, and the rich have a lot of money," then we need to fi