Um... I think this is going to explode.

Emi and I were talking about this.

She ENCOURAGED IT.

I mean, discuss all ya want.

I wash my hands, I said my piece. I don't want to battle anyone. No one is gonna change their minds, I get that, but it just seemed like a little balance was needed.

Some Shiori hate X3

Edit: And i mean "hate" in a tongue-in-cheek way, don't try to kill me.

Last edited by Dross (10-28-2007 01:11:34 AM)

Hm, Dross. You do realize the Shiori fans here will give very passionate responses? I feel obligated to as well, but I doubt it will really change much. Ulimately, I feel Shiori is misunderstood, but I'd still like her even if she was pure evil, much in the same way others enjoy Akio or Touga. You seem like we Shiori fans justifying her actions and even idolizing her as a heroine. I think that we all pretty much realize that she is no role model. Few in Utena are.

But I'm surprised you would make a distinction of her being PARTICULARLY evil. Shiori, in comparison, is tame. You say she is cruel for a poor reason. Well, Akio may seek a goal, but it's the worthless endless end of a man trapped in his coffin. And in addition to being manipulative and sadistic beyond the excuse of purpose, his influence on Mikage also indicates he's not afraid to kill to accomplish his ends. So how is Shiori worse than him? You say she has no good reason. Neither does anybody else. The whole point of the Ohtori population is that they're seeking an impossible illusion.

Honestly, I can sort of understand this. Even after reading all the +Shiori threads on IRG I still can't bring myself to sympathize with her. I'm certainly not saying that you guys can't like her. I just . . . don't. :/

She's not intended to be likable in any regard. I can't really say I even "like" her, in the conventional sense. If anything, the character I sympathesize personally the most with is Juri. I personally find her interesting. And a large part of her appeal comes from her unpopularity. So I don't really mind those who dislike her, but I do like to know why.

Last edited by Jellineck (10-28-2007 01:16:10 AM)

There really isn't a whole lot of Shiori love as far as I can tell... she has a few very devoted fans but that's about it - the majority of the SKU fans seem pretty ambivalent toward her, as she's an important part of the story but not widely appealing.

If anything, Shiori certainly draws strong emotions from people. She's a dynamic and important character.

Agreed. A lot of the characters in Utena are like mirrors; they reflect the opinions of the viewer. Somebody brought up that significance with Anthy, and there's even an essay on that. But Shiori is very interesting because people who dislike her tend to enjoy Akio and Touga. Why? Some people it's a matter of skill, some people boil it down to gender. Varies.

Last edited by Jellineck (10-28-2007 01:18:44 AM)

Needless to say, I expect our usual high level of discourse on this thread   Everyone should bear in mind that we're discussing fictional characters, not real people; criticism of Shiori is not an attack on Shiori fans.  If anything, it's the opposite -- I think IRG's high-profile Shiori fans are very thoughtful, fascinating posters, all the more so because they love a character I don't much like.  I'll be very interested to hear what Razara, dollface, et al. have to say about Dross's points!

Last edited by satyreyes (10-28-2007 01:26:08 AM)

Jellineck wrote:

high-profile Shiori fans

Erm...do I count? I want to be a member of the Shiorority...

lol I would think if you consider yourself one you can probably be a member of the Shiorority. Of course, I can't say that's official.

It's one thing to say you don't like a character. It's entirely something else to all-out attack her with emotionally loaded language and many generalizations.

Last edited by ShatteredMirror (10-28-2007 01:35:07 AM)

Shattered Mirror: I might giva ya emotionally loaded language, but I fixed it up a bit for a better beta read X3

Although I'd have to disagree with many generalizations. I think I was pretty to the point. I mean, certainly there is room for disagreement and all X3

Jellineck: I don't really foster a grudge, or find her better or worse than any other character. I just was talking about it with Emi, and was asking if I missed something I didn't remember about Shiori. So I read through some posts people made about her to get a grasp on that perspective, and I just thought some of the points they made could be answered to.

And so...it's not so much a  question as to why, but why not?

Last edited by Dross (10-28-2007 01:44:01 AM)

I'm not a Shiori fan but it makes me sort of  sad seeing her being bashed so often. Why don't I ever come across threads where Anthy is being bashed especially because she was a much horrible person than Shiori?

Dross wrote:

No, people don't generally like people who hurt someone for NO REASON. It doesn't matter who it is! And don't give me that she was jealous of Juri and she couldn't handle her own feelings of inadequecy. Just because there is a tenuous motivation for the pain she caused someone who didn't deserve it, doesn't make her admirable or interesting. Just mean.

Indeed, but this is a reason anyway. A reason can be anything, nobody says you have to like the it. Jealousy is a very strong emotion and it can drive people into doing horrible things. People don't generally like it, you're right. But being human and having those feelings...is that wrong?
There is no one in SKU acting without a reason, but whether we understand those reason depends solely on ourselves. With that being said, I don't expect everyone to be able to understand every character because different people perceive them differently.

As I said, I'm not a Shiori fan, and I don't find her admirable.  However, she is one of the most complex and realistic characters in SKU which is why I find her interesting. I don't care if you bash Shiori or not, but saying there's no reason behind it makes it unacceptable to me. There is always a reason, even if we may not like it. And hating someone is fine too as long as you understand why they've acted the way they did.
From my own point of view, I find it very hard to hate any character after seeing episode 39 simply because they are not the same people that they were in the beginning. And Shiori is no exception.

Also, could someone make a thread for bashing Anthy next time? All those Shiori threads are getting old in the long run. e_e

Also, could someone make a thread for bashing Anthy next time?

Eh. Too common. I'm just waiting for a Chu-Chu bashing haven. Honestly, I detested that thing, and I'm firmly convinced he's behind most of the evils at Ohtori. In some ways I'm not even joking. I always thought he played a certain sort of malicious significance. I mean, he dressed up like Akio, for Dios's sake.

As a character, Shiori's actions and motivations are quite confused and trauma-based, which is intriguing.  As a plot-mechanism, she's bitter and wicked and sharp, which gets things moving where nicer characters would all, y'know, be playing nice too much and not providing us entertaining drama and crises.  As a a ball of weird little twitches of guilt, yearning, confusion and enthusiasm, she's good for culling gut reactions of grief, frustration, anger, laughter and/or oh, honey, no, you really don't want to...!  She makes a good vehicle for a lot of emotional baggage that's not necessarily as simple or direct as many of more primary characters (not that they're that simple, either), which made her a great bizzaro-Utena in the movie, and probably made her a great car, too.  And she was a great car.

Also (perhaps more honestly, in my case, I'm so surface): good hair and a great throw-head-back pose in the movie, while Touga's doing her nails.