Yasha wrote:

Just a quickie, I don't have the brain power to write another long post like that with the tv on and people talking in here...

BUT CHECK THIS OUT:

Rose seal rings turn black when the duellist who owns them dies.

The Sword of Dios turns black at the end.

Anyone else seeing a connection????

Not much to really put, except rewatching Mikage's duel, he uses a black handled blade as well. Though the hand guard surrounding it is a darkish golden color. If we take this into context (that Mikage's blade is not normal), would that mean that Mikage's sword isn't simply a normal sword?

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Akio and Anthy's relationship is so hard for me to grasp, but I like that idea a lot. I can never tell if it's Akio or Anthy that values the weekly "meetings" more, but I think it's Akio. He always said things like "Did you miss me?" And I remember when he was talking about the stars and how you can't own them, and Anthy was just getting dressed and said goodbye, and then he said "Do you mock me again?" *shudders* That scene was creepy.

..but the way Akio was talking about how you can't own stars.. it makes me wonder if he was referring to something else. Like how you can't own a prince? Bitter, maybe? I can't even begin to figure out those two's relationship. >_>

I should think he was most definitely referring to the stars. Akio likes to use his observatory as a metaphor, which is all very interesting because his observatory houses his projector and what Akio wants to see, he sees. ...hell, I don't know where I'm going with this, but my brain just exploded with New Thoughts. Er, I'll shut up, now.

And from the way Akio sounded so desperate when Anthy walked out on him in the last episode, I think he needs her just as much, if not more, than she ever needed him. I don't think it's just because she held within herself a part of his own being...it was because she was his sister and I think that actually does count for something. To make any real sense of those two we'd have to make a thread about their actual relationship, but I think for now it's enough to say they stayed with each other so long because they were punishing one another for what happened when Anthy took Dios's sword and then the million swords...Anthy is being punished for taking Dios from the world, while Dios is being punished for being unable to save his sister. AH THE IRONY I IRONY.

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

.. ;_; I'm reminded of the Dios on the globe, which seemed more like a statue. (Wasn't it a statue later?) It would be interesting if that globe with the "Dios" on it was more like a..grave.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Akio DOES refer to it as being "the prince's grave." It makes you think, particularly with some of the things later, that Akio doesn't believe taking back the power Anthy sealed away will turn him back into what he is. Perhaps he believes himself too corrupt? But then he certainly doesn't seem to MIND most of the time...

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Which brings me back to the original topic about Saionji's last duel.. maybe it was something Anthy unconsciously wanted, so it happened? I'm not sure why she wouldn't want Utena to use the Sword of Dios and want Utena to use her own sword, though.

Maybe the unconscious wanting thing is also why Dios treated Utena the way he did when she was down, as it was similar to what Anthy did in a way.

...I must say that I am in LOVE WITH THE IDEA THAT ANTHY IS SUBCONSCIOUSLY INFLUENCING DIOS AND I WANT TO MARRY IT AND HAVE ITS BABIES. ...I may have to settle for writing an essay, though. I will have something to say on this later, but now I have to go and grow myself a brain first and ponder. Ponder deep.

I mentioned this in the Kanae thread, but here it is again: I believe that only the Black Rose Duelists in that arc need to pull their own swords, and Mikage's sword was of the physical variety because he is a regular Duelist with no need to steal the skill of anyone else. The fact that Mikage's duel had him parroting the moves of all the Duelists who came before him, (Wakaba's hair slash, Juri's arm shove...) could be construed as him receiving a conglomeration of the power received from every soul sword pulled from each Black Rose Duelist, but as I continued to watch, I realized that the duel motions are just constantly re-used by each character. For instance, in Miki's last Duel, he uses Black Ros Shiori's move, where she blocks Utena's sword and leans into his face. I don't know if this is just the animators using up old sequences because of budget cuts, or if it's just supposed to symbolise the cyclic nature of the duels, but there we go.

Last edited by Ivy-chan (10-23-2006 05:00:24 AM)

Clarice wrote:

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

..but the way Akio was talking about how you can't own stars.. it makes me wonder if he was referring to something else. Like how you can't own a prince? Bitter, maybe? I can't even begin to figure out those two's relationship. >_>

I should think he was most definitely referring to the stars. Akio likes to use his observatory as a metaphor, which is all very interesting because his observatory houses his projector and what Akio wants to see, he sees. ...hell, I don't know where I'm going with this, but my brain just exploded with New Thoughts. Er, I'll shut up, now.

Funny, I saw it as a roundabout warning from Akio to not get too close to Utena with that metaphor: 'I found a new star, I feel like when I discover a new star I make it mine. But a star is still a star, it belongs to nobody'. Like he was telling Anthy 'you may be her bride for now, but she doesn't belong to you and she is only a tool.'

Ivy-chan wrote:

Clarice wrote:

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

..but the way Akio was talking about how you can't own stars.. it makes me wonder if he was referring to something else. Like how you can't own a prince? Bitter, maybe? I can't even begin to figure out those two's relationship. >_>

I should think he was most definitely referring to the stars. Akio likes to use his observatory as a metaphor, which is all very interesting because his observatory houses his projector and what Akio wants to see, he sees. ...hell, I don't know where I'm going with this, but my brain just exploded with New Thoughts. Er, I'll shut up, now.

Funny, I saw it as a roundabout warning from Akio to not get too close to Utena with that metaphor: 'I found a new star, I feel like when I discover a new star I make it mine. But a star is still a star, it belongs to nobody'. Like he was telling Anthy 'you may be her bride for now, but she doesn't belong to you and she is only a tool.'

Yes, I agree, the "newly discovered star" Akio is talking about is definitely Utena. He is rubbing it in to Anthy that he took Utena's virginity in the last episode. He says the star was "one no one else had found before" or some such thing. He says "you think if you've found something first then its yours but its really not" (I'm paraphrasing). It belongs to no one, he says. Anthy gives him no reaction and when he complains about the cold shoulder, she gives the little smile. That Anthy. Utena as the "star" is reiterated by the Shadow Girls a scene later when they want Utena to "star" in their play, "A star is born!" That line just clinches the reference.

Giovanna wrote:

Sweet lord almighty this thread is why I'm going to need a new chair and possibly a new carpet.

Clarice wrote:

There's a really creepy shot in...I think perhaps the episode where Nanami walks in on them, or perhaps it is Utena...I think it's Utena. When Anthy rises up and we see her from behind, her hair is really odd. It looks like a cross between her own hair style and Akio's. The combination is weird, and while it can be taken as a metaphor for sex, I always thought of it as being a visual clue to the brother and sister being too entwined with each other on every level...too joined to each other to let go.

You mean this shot? I agree, there is something suspicious about it... It just seems kinda thrown in there, in much the way that would suggest there's a reason, because the way she's moving doesn't follow at all from the position she's in a moment prior. However, in that sequence she does cross her arms over her abdomen as she arches. The motions are fluid and quite pretty but at root it's almost like she's reacting to being stabbed.

Except she's arching back instead of keeling forward. I vaguely recall there being a neurological thing where babies will react with the opposite of the proper response to stimulus like pain. They'll stretch their foot out instead of curl it together if you tickle, etc. Not that I think they're related but is something to note...

Clarice wrote:

Utena deals a lot in stock footage

I'm about to start a thread about this. Not just repeated frames but repeated shots, where they had to do a new cel anyway but made a specific point of using the same design. At times I suspect this is cost cutting as well, but not every time. When it happens, it's far too suspicious.

Also there's a lot of mention about Akio's observatory/planetarium. I'ma start a thread about this too because my position as a space nerd qualifies me to clear this up a little. The metaphor gets very uh...direct, the more specific you get about exactly what he has in that room. Actually I should flesh it out and use the thread as a beating out for material to put on the Akio shrine...hmm...(immediately gets nightmares about the process of ADDING A SECTION TO AN IMAGE BASED MENU OH GOD WHY DO I DO THIS)

In fact I think I'll get started on a conversation-starter now. As for this thread, I'm LOVING it, however I do see a lot of fragmenting off from the original subject, so guys, pllllllllease if you see a new topic starting, post a new thread! It makes things easier for us all to sort out and lets people know what conversations are going on. I read every thread, but not everyone has the time, and they might be missing out on their favorite subject because it's in a thread they're otherwise less drawn to.

Nanami is scarred permanently after that moment.

Clarice wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Akio DOES refer to it as being "the prince's grave." It makes you think, particularly with some of the things later, that Akio doesn't believe taking back the power Anthy sealed away will turn him back into what he is. Perhaps he believes himself too corrupt? But then he certainly doesn't seem to MIND most of the time...

Ack, you're right! I knew I must have gotten it from somewhere.. XD;

Clarice wrote:

...I must say that I am in LOVE WITH THE IDEA THAT ANTHY IS SUBCONSCIOUSLY INFLUENCING DIOS AND I WANT TO MARRY IT AND HAVE ITS BABIES. ...I may have to settle for writing an essay, though. I will have something to say on this later, but now I have to go and grow myself a brain first and ponder. Ponder deep.

Me too. :3 I think this requires it's own thread.

Giovanna wrote:

In fact I think I'll get started on a conversation-starter now. As for this thread, I'm LOVING it, however I do see a lot of fragmenting off from the original subject, so guys, pllllllllease if you see a new topic starting, post a new thread! It makes things easier for us all to sort out and lets people know what conversations are going on. I read every thread, but not everyone has the time, and they might be missing out on their favorite subject because it's in a thread they're otherwise less drawn to.

Eep, thanks for the reminder! I'll probably make a seperate thread about one of these topics soon.

Okay, so back on topic: I'm really puzzling over the missing Sword of Dios thing during Saionji's duel. Akio obviously didn't plan it.. maybe Anthy unconsciously, but why? She helped Utena use her own sword, so what reason could she have for wanting Utena to use her own sword? Hmm.. Maybe at this point she was starting to believe more in Utena's noble and princely nature? (She did seem to shrug it off at first)

Damn, you people post so much and so many lovely ideas so quickly, and I really need to watch the series again.

azuresquirrel wrote:

Damn, this is one big thread.

I'm not sure if this fits better there or in the Akio/Anthy discussion, but as the swords play a major part I'll put it here. What do people make of the brief scene in episode 37 when Akio's angrily driving the Akio Car and Anthy's in the passenger seat wearing the Rose Bride dress with her hair down and we see the Swords of Hate stabbing her again? We know that's she's always feeling the pain of the swords, but it seems extra intense in this scene. Why so?

I have wondered at that scene also. Akio is REALLY upset/angry and Anthy is, well, moaning like she's having some really rough sex. This seems like a sex scene which makes sense because, since Utena knows about them now, they can't get away with sex in the tower anymore. Plus they are in the car and we all know what happens in the car. (Actually, it seems like they had not had sex yet when Utena discovers them, hmm, doubt that they continued after Utena walked in, but I digress). Also this is the last time we see Akio before he presents himself to Utena as her prince during the final duel. So what is he angry about? Maybe is uncertain of what is going to happen now that the end has finally come. Utena is no longer wearing the ring because she's mad at Anthy. At that point it seems like Utena will not be going to the "castle" so Akio might think he's up a creek. So I think that's what he's mad about. Still, the swords are a great image. Maybe to remind the audience of the pain she is in?

Giovanna wrote:

Dani wrote:

I have wondered at that scene also. Akio is REALLY upset/angry and Anthy is, well, moaning like she's having some really rough sex. This seems like a sex scene which makes sense because, since Utena knows about them now, they can't get away with sex in the tower anymore. Plus they are in the car and we all know what happens in the car. (Actually, it seems like they had not had sex yet when Utena discovers them, hmm, doubt that they continued after Utena walked in, but I digress). Also this is the last time we see Akio before he presents himself to Utena as her prince during the final duel. So what is he angry about? Maybe is uncertain of what is going to happen now that the end has finally come. Utena is no longer wearing the ring because she's mad at Anthy. At that point it seems like Utena will not be going to the "castle" so Akio might think he's up a creek. So I think that's what he's mad about. Still, the swords are a great image. Maybe to remind the audience of the pain she is in?

Hmm, this business with the sex is interesting, especially since they go from clothed to nude in one shot. It's a deviation from the norm for them, usually even if Anthy's in the Rose Bride dress, Akio's in his usual outfit. Odd there. But if we're going to run with the idea of sex (oh, we are), Akio is probably in no small part pissed off at her. She's been in a pain in his ass lately, and what he says in that scene sounds like he's trying to make excuses in defense of accusations no one actually needs to make.

I must meditate on this.

...is it possible that at times, sex was used to dull the pain of the swords? Sexual arousal heightens senses, yes, but it dulls a person's sense of pain, the chemical and mental high push a lot of otherwise painful things into acceptable territory.

A lot of adults use sex to soothe the pain of the swords in their lives.

Yep, I'm sure that he's mad at her in that scene. I was thinking that but typing so fast I forgot to put it in. Anthy is the reason Utena is not wearing the ring and I think Anthy has been trying all along to derail Utena from going to the castle. I think Akio would blame Anthy for Utena not being on track.

The idea that Anthy might have started and/or agreed to sex with her brother to dull the pain is REALLY interesting. I assumed their physical relationship got started because all they had was each other and she felt guilty for isolating him so maybe she thought it was the least she could do. But in a way, that's dulling the pain of loneliness so it's not a stretch that it might dull the pain of being the Rose Bride too. A very cool concept I'll have to think more about...

I haven't read all the posts in here yet, but here's my thoughts on the subject.

First of all, the sword that Anthy carries inside her really is the sword of Dios. But like Saionji himself said at one point, it possesses no power on it's own. It's an empty remain of Dios. Anthy can put some spark of power into it, but what really gives the sword power if the wielder. Now, when the sword vanished during the third duel with Saionji, I believe it was something that neither Anthy or Akio had planned for, at least not at that point. But it wasn't something completely shocking either, because it was meant to happen sooner or later. Akio looked surprised, but I don't think he was angry about it like a few people have suggested in here. He later said to himself "The sword of Dios didn't appear..." and repeated this once more before saying "But despite that she still won the duel. Oh, it was magnificent." while smiling. His irritation wasn't sparked by the business with the sword, but rather because Anthy refused to come to him during his usual "come here, Anthy" call. So anyway, back to the main question, why did the sword of Dios vanish only to be pulled out of Utena? This might be a crazy idea, but I think that the sword switched "host" so to speak. The sword of Dios had right then become Utena's soul sword, and was now being fully empowered by her. It can no longer be pulled out of Anthy, and therefor it had to be re-pulled (lulz, making up my own words now) out of Utena. This I believe happens to every duelist who has begun getting closer and closer to the final Revolution duel, and it's all part of the big plan. Because after the final duel Akio will take the sword of Dios, just like he always does, and try to open the Rose Gate with the power that it's new "host" had put into it.