This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top04-21-2012 05:56:54 PM

Rotten Mooring
Precious One
Registered: 10-26-2011
Posts: 281

Perceptions of Beauty and the Influence of [various] Media

Rebel Prince wrote:

Has there been a thread discussing perceptions of beauty? It may be interesting to start one up.

Wish granted!
*Given, if there is already a thread for this, I'm leaving it to our mods to scrap this thread. emot-wink


To begin, over in the Food Detox thread (http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=2998) people were chiming in to chat about the seemingly negative impact of American standards of beauty. So, are the American standards really that much worse than any other nation's ideal? Or is it just that Hollywood and other visual media makes the "American standard" that much more pervasive?

I'm an admitted bi-sexual (or pan-sexual, if you prefer) of questionable tastes and while I can indulge in discussions of beauty for purely aesthetic reasons, it all holds very little sway. So long as a person doesn't look like a recent sufferer of plague, they, visually, won't make much impact on me one way or another. What I'm interested in is how society and the media inform peoples' perceptions of how anyone should look. That you must dress a certain way for a job interview, that you can be overdressed for being in public and, particularly, that a certain manner of dress can be acceptable for a person of one gender and not for another. More than the men-in-skirts verses women-in-pants discussion, I find that many of the minor details that make up double standards, such as how person should smell in this or that scenario, completely fascinate me.
I dump this preface before you now because I have every intention of playing devil's advocate should a discussion launch one way or another. school-devil

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#2 | Back to Top04-21-2012 09:19:50 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Perceptions of Beauty and the Influence of [various] Media

Ooh, body odor! That's a big one, because it brings up so many cultural and biological issues. What's acceptable to smell like is a hugely cultural thing, but by the same token, there's tons of evidence that natural body odors can still function as animal pheromones for most people.

Now, I come into contact with a lot of uh, natural odors, in my line of work, and I can say straight out that different cultural groups have distinctive, easily identified, different body odors. Some I find more or less pleasant than others. But this fact has been used to justify the case against racial mixing.

It's also been used to support it. (You're attracted to smells that offer the most genetic variation.)

In western culture, it's become virtually unacceptable to smell like body odor, and yet why is hooking up so common in the gym, when we all stink? A lot of standards of beauty have some basis in the original product and are exaggerations of some kind, but the removal of the natural scent of a body is absolute and total. Why is this, when we often recognize the appeal of, say, a clean, but identifiable, sex? Maybe because it's the sexuality we demand to have hidden in normal society...but then why is the visual element so sexualized?

Grr!


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#3 | Back to Top04-22-2012 03:22:08 AM

Rebel Prince
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-24-2006
Posts: 61

Re: Perceptions of Beauty and the Influence of [various] Media

emot-aaa I have a forum fairy-godmother granting my wishes!!

Giovanna wrote:

Ooh, body odor!!

Perfuming is such a strange thing, and I *think* (I have no real idea, pure shot in the dark) that it's probably most popular in the US. Maybe it fits into that LA/Hollywood concept of beauty which is to appear as inorganic as possible - as if the goal is to reach the uncanny valley or something. With a fair amount of shame, I can confess that I'm attracted to the unrealistically-skinny girls/models with perfect cocoa-brown or milk-white skin and pastel-dyed hair, and through my adolescence and young adult life I have probably done my poor body some unkindness mirroring this style. But if I think about it, it is the same attraction I have to say, saucer-eyed anime characters or the Rilakkuma bear; it's barely a human attraction, and man is it weird to not really perceive a person as human anymore, even if only aesthetically. When I look at some models, it's hard for me to even picture them as having the means for bodily function or ability to secrete fluids. Am I completely weird, or do others regard them to the same degree of artificiality?

But back to body odor! I remember in middle school swooning over boy-crushes with my friends using the frequent phrase "oooh, he smells like boy etc-love" - and I'm still quite attracted to that natural masculine odor. Moreover, I feel like in men's magazine polls the "getting with a girl right after she comes home from the gym" scenario is -always- highly ranked, and I know how I smell after the gym. The US is supposedly this sexually liberated place (right? maybe?), but I feel like comparatively we're more wont to minimize publicizing such features to appear/smell more "polished." The smell of certain colognes is an insta-arousal for me, and I desperately want to know why - like if I've been trained as a consumer to respond to the power and luxury of fragrance. I mean, even grocery stores and Best Buy use fragrance as a "soft" manipulation tactic. Weird science school-freud.

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#4 | Back to Top04-22-2012 09:10:08 AM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1325
Website

Re: Perceptions of Beauty and the Influence of [various] Media

With a fair amount of shame, I can confess that I'm attracted to the unrealistically-skinny girls/models with perfect cocoa-brown or milk-white skin and pastel-dyed hair.

I think a huge problem lies in how lots of North Americans have trouble distinguishing between slender (hot!) and skinny/scrawny(not!).

Slender people have proportionally small waists, muscled outer shoulders, and long limbs that are fleshed out in smooth curves.  It's a look that requires a balanced lifestyle to get.

Skinny people have waists that may not look any narrower than their already narrow pigeon chests, bony shoulders, and stick like limbs with elbows and kneecaps jutting out.  That plus sparse hair would be almost certainly a sign of starvation or other health problems.

I don't see why many consider slender to be unrealistic/unhealthy in North America, considering how many non-celeb girls in Europe, especially Russia, are all like 6 foot, leggy, 24 inch waists and with high hair density (what's near impossible for starving people to maintain).  They're also Caucasian from what I can tell, and instead of fast food, they seem to have lots of beans and fruits in their diet which I guess helps people to be slender.

And if you've been to Japan, especially those countryside areas, you might see how many of the ordinary teenagers there are just as slim as the Utena characters (if often not quite as leggy). 

I remember in middle school swooning over boy-crushes with my friends using the frequent phrase "oooh, he smells like boy etc-love" - and I'm still quite attracted to that natural masculine odor.

I think I saw some ad saying that masculine odor can be attained by this sandalwood mixture, but to me that smells too much like fire place.


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Completed as of May 12, 2018) / (PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#5 | Back to Top04-22-2012 02:34:37 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2354

Re: Perceptions of Beauty and the Influence of [various] Media

Rebel Prince wrote:

emot-aaa I have a forum fairy-godmother granting my wishes!!

The smell of certain colognes is an insta-arousal for me, and I desperately want to know why - like if I've been trained as a consumer to respond to the power and luxury of fragrance. I mean, even grocery stores and Best Buy use fragrance as a "soft" manipulation tactic. Weird science school-freud.

See, I'm indifferent to cologne. In fact, it either makes me think a guy is trying too hard or he's gay. I just want my man to smell clean rather than artificial.

I'm also really interested in how color can make some people seem like better mates. Two or three hundred years ago pink was considered masculine and now it's just the opposite. Why does this happen?


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#6 | Back to Top04-22-2012 07:01:05 PM

Rotten Mooring
Precious One
Registered: 10-26-2011
Posts: 281

Re: Perceptions of Beauty and the Influence of [various] Media

Riri-kins wrote:

I'm also really interested in how color can make some people seem like better mates. Two or three hundred years ago pink was considered masculine and now it's just the opposite. Why does this happen?

I feel like I was just reading an article to that effect - pink was the baby boy's color because it was, essentially, baby's first red. Pale blue was the color for baby girls because blue is a calming, passive color and therefor associated with more feminine vitues. I guess the swap occurred mid-1800's, but I can't seem to recall why the swap happened.

Now I'm gonna have to go look it up because it bugs me that I don't remember. school-sherlock

Edit: Mission Accomplished.

Full article - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cult … -Pink.html

Apparently, gender-ed clothing, as opposed to gender-neutral clothing, arrived in the 1800's. Pink for boys and blue for girls gained popularity in the early 1900's and we have the Baby Boomers to thank for the pink-blue gender swap. The boomers were brought up with pink for girls, blue for boys and they've been outvoting everyone else on the issue ever since.

Last edited by Rotten Mooring (04-22-2012 07:09:24 PM)

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