This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top01-10-2007 10:23:05 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Ivy-chan wrote:

Cool analysis of Jur's motivation

Yeah, absolutely, I agree that Juri's main motivation is her disapproval at Touga's methods so that's why I said "in part". And she doesn't seem to want the Rose Bride for herself after this. it takes a ruthless Ruka to get her to, reluctantly, duel Utena again. Giving Utena the sword also kinda redeems and softens her character since we have see her assault Utena and Anthy a few episodes before.

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#27 | Back to Top01-10-2007 10:27:35 AM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Gio, you are amazing.

NOW WHO WANTS SOME CURRY???

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r216/hyacinth-black/pietanza_al_curry.jpg

I made it myself... school-devil


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Hyacinth Black: Not much else to say, is there?

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#28 | Back to Top01-10-2007 12:25:16 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Dani wrote:

Ivy-chan wrote:

Cool analysis of Jur's motivation

Yeah, absolutely, I agree that Juri's main motivation is her disapproval at Touga's methods so that's why I said "in part". And she doesn't seem to want the Rose Bride for herself after this. it takes a ruthless Ruka to get her to, reluctantly, duel Utena again. Giving Utena the sword also kinda redeems and softens her character since we have see her assault Utena and Anthy a few episodes before.

Juri never shows interest in obtaining the Rose Bride, to my recollection. But when Touga is unable to duel, from his injury by Saionji, both Juri and Miki volunteer immediatly to take Touga's place in dueling Utena. I've always found that interesting since, by the time they have a chance to duel again, they both require a car ride with Akio to get into the fighting spirit.

I do agree that Juri wants Utena to wipe Touga's smirk off his face. Maybe even more than she'd want to do it herself.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#29 | Back to Top01-10-2007 02:42:33 PM

Frosty
Everyone's Best Friend
From: United States
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Wow! I never noticed Miki's can was closed, while Mikage's was open!!! These little details are what keeps SKU at the top of my list. Thanks again, Gio!

I'll ask for Anthy analysis as well. She is so skilled at keeping a straight face, that I live for the moments when she betrays herself and shows some emotion.


Just remember that the things you put into your head are there forever, he said. You might want to think about that. / You forget some things, don't you? / Yes. You forget what you want to remember and you remember what you want to forget.

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#30 | Back to Top01-10-2007 04:08:13 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Ragnarok wrote:

I do agree that Juri wants Utena to wipe Touga's smirk off his face. Maybe even more than she'd want to do it herself.

We never see Juri's response to Utena's wearing the girls' uniform. Perhaps she disapproves not only of Touga's tactics but of the effect it had on Utena.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#31 | Back to Top01-10-2007 04:19:06 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

I do agree that Juri wants Utena to wipe Touga's smirk off his face. Maybe even more than she'd want to do it herself.

We never see Juri's response to Utena's wearing the girls' uniform. Perhaps she disapproves not only of Touga's tactics but of the effect it had on Utena.

Ooo, so right! That goes on my "deleted scenes" wishlist.

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#32 | Back to Top01-10-2007 07:31:55 PM

angelicreation
The Breast Saviour
From: Denver, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 1323
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

ShatteredMirror wrote:

We never see Juri's response to Utena's wearing the girls' uniform. Perhaps she disapproves not only of Touga's tactics but of the effect it had on Utena.

Considering how scumptious Utena looked in the girl's uniform (especially after it'd been cut to hell by Touga) I can see Juri enjoying the view.  I doubt that had any bearing on whether she helps out in the duel or not.


Life is short: break the rules, forgive quickly, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

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#33 | Back to Top01-10-2007 09:30:33 PM

ShatteredMirror
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From: Sacramento, CA
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Posts: 8858

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Hm, you may be right. But I am interested in an analysis of the few seconds that we see her offering up the sword.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#34 | Back to Top01-10-2007 09:51:27 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Hm, you may be right. But I am interested in an analysis of the few seconds that we see her offering up the sword.

Seconded!!

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#35 | Back to Top01-11-2007 08:31:49 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Ivy-chan wrote:

I think she gave Utena the sword both as a gesture of support and also to help even the odds between Touga and Utena. (Something tells me she would have attempted to fight Touga with a bokken.) More: 'go and knock the smile off his face for me' rather than 'I'm awful sorry for hitting you'.

I've always assumed this was the case, but since everyone's requesting, I'll go over that shot soon. emot-smile I don't recall anything coming out and hitting me in the face about it though, so we'll see. Also I'm sorry I didn't post here yesterday (or much at all), I was having a very bad day. I'm a little better now after a bottle of carmenere, some sourdough, and port salut. school-chef

For now...ANTHY! As promised. Anthy I will cover a lot more when I get to later in the series, since that's when her body language opens up a bit and gets fun to read.

In just about any analysis of Akio and Anthy's relationship, we (rightly, for the most part) harp on about how bitter and vicious the two are. How there's more love at a klan rally. How they would like nothing more than to tear the other's guts out with their teeth. Not much is ever said about anything that could be construed as 'positive', and we also tend to assume their relationship was always as openly hostile as it is later in the series when the pink haired wedge is shoved between them. I have always assumed their working relationship was actually quite decent, all things considered, before Utena got too present in things. Most of my support for this is secondary, and just deduction from what I know of their characters, and can imagine springs from necessity when you spend eternity dealing with someone. Some of my support for it comes from this:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/14/Series_ep14_198.jpg?m=1380853308
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/snaps203.jpg

Let's first cover the instinct factor. This is the first facial expression I've discussed so it's where this really comes to light. It's easy to think with all my yammering and details about hip direction and closing the torso that body language is merely a calculation. Body language is about instinct. We're not built to know all these details I'm explaining, we're designed to understand and speak the language without knowing the grammar. And the first thing I do, before I note where the hands are, before I check dilation of the pupils, is note the immediate gut reaction I have to what I'm looking at.

Forget you know who the character is, where she is, or what she's looking at. How does her expression appear to you, when you remove all the informational baggage we're carrying? There's something strangely peaceful about her. A calm satisfaction you see in paintings. Satisfaction that looks...possessive, perhaps. My first thought was of the way people look at a hard-won prize, after the giddiness and shock has worn off, and it becomes less about the prize itself and more about how much you kick ass for obtaining it.

The bottom line? There's nothing in her expression here that suggests she's not pleased to see Akio, or that she'd prefer to be somewhere else. After analysis, this doesn't change. After I tore apart the pose, the eyes, the mouth, Anthy was still quite pleased to be there.

Let's pick up the informational baggage. She's looking at a lover. Her brother. Someone she doesn't love, but is nevertheless bound to. But she's not thinking in those terms at the moment. She's thinking of how he's bound to her. Remember that possessive satisfaction? Her eyes are closed as she turns, and she does not completely turn before she stops and looks at him. Possessive; she knows where he will be, of course, but such an open display of that knowledge? She's looking at a possession and thinking 'Ah, right where I left you.' She removes her glasses before she checks to confirm that. This is a mental marker she uses to note a change in her surroundings. It's like when you get home from work, most of us have some ritual that takes place to mentally mark the change in environment. Though we've already walked through the door and dumped the mail on the kitchen table, we don't note that we're home until we've, say, kicked our shoes off. Anthy doesn't make an effort to look at Akio until after this ritual, which is here most likely meant to mark the setting aside of their usual performances. Strangely, less about her undressing herself in any way than 'undressing' Akio. Had she looked before this, perhaps she would have seen the trustee chairman, or her loving brother, or some other ridiculous charade they keep up around others. But she sets all of that aside and then looks at him.

Anthy doesn't turn to face him completely. In her body, this is a possessive gesture. When you turn and face someone and truly face them, it's both a challenging gesture (suggested preparation for attack) and a display of intimacy, because in the suggestion of attack, you're also accepting they could make the first move. There's consenting vulnerability in people when they face each other fully, and Anthy is not doing this. There's no intimacy, but that's because there's no challenge. There's no challenge, because Anthy is looking at something she's quite sure is hers, and has stayed hers, and it doesn't need to be reminded of its place. He's not a dog that might run off. He's a sculpture, or a book. An inanimate object that can't challenge a person's ownership of it.

Which brings us to what it means that she doesn't fully turn her face to him either. Allow me to suggest a situation where you'll see a lot of it and no doubt do it yourself. Go to an art museum. Very often a person inspecting a piece, especially a piece that appeals to them, will turn their head away a little as they do so. This is very different from the disapproving half turn you get from someone looking at a piece they dislike, it's a person looking at the piece from several angles, critically, but out of interest in fully appreciating the work. Anthy does not turn her head this way and that to get all angles, but she doesn't have to. It's her object and she knows it well; there's no inspection here, just appreciation.

The appreciation we also see elsewhere. Her eyelids are lowered a little. Not falsely or deliberately though, but like she's relaxing her eyes, which naturally lowers the eyelids a hair more than we typically keep them. Try it. emot-smile This is appreciation for something familiar, enjoyment without the need to take in as much as possible. (Consider in contrast how Touga's eyes widen drastically when he sees Utena in the dress. Appreciation without possession, a sense that if he doesn't see all of it right away, he'll miss his chance.) This relaxing the eyes is where I got the impression she looked peaceful.

Anthy's lips are also drawn in a calm smile. Lips are telling in SKU, since there's a 'normal' way they do it, and that's very not what they did here. There's a complete line, drawn not to suggest thickness (as they normally do), but to show us the shape of her smile. It's not a wide smile. There's no giddiness or excessive enthusiasm here, just a calm, passive pleasure. A wider smile, however, also would have been unable to account for all the bad she sees, but this expression in its entirety, though it completely lacks any sense of displeasure in and of itself, is not an ignorant look. She doesn't see something she's idolizing or attempting to improve in her thoughts. She knows he's a shit, and they hate each other, etc, etc, but she's enjoying him anyway.

What she's enjoying...well. All that possessive satisfaction of something that's yours and unable to get away? We can account for the unable to get away, and the possessive. Satisfied? Why not? All else aside, there's one thing we know the guy's good for, and it's what she's about to go get some of. emot-dance Though their sexual relationship is fueled by a lot more than lust, that certainly doesn't mean there's no lust there, and nothing in their situation suggests we're to assume they're not sexually attracted to each other. Why wouldn't they be? They're both gorgeous creatures, and I think it's safe to assume they're rather good at getting the other off.

In short: Anthy looks at Akio whoring it up on the couch and goes '...I'd hit it. In fact, I think that's exactly what I'll do. emot-dance'

Oh this got lengthy. I hope it made sense, it's hard to explain for me because she's so blasted subtle about everything. I think I'll do Saionji or Touga next, since they're subtle like sledgehammers. emot-biggrin


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#36 | Back to Top01-11-2007 09:54:26 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

I DO have that feeling of, um, comfortable serenity, I guess, from Anthy when I watch that scene. I wouldn't have been able to articulate it as Gio has so amazingly done but it's there. I think it's hard to pick up on the first couple of times you watch it because the viewer can't quite detach from the fact that the show is blatantly shocking you with the truth of their relationship and wow. I know my jaw hit the floor the first time. And now that I think about it, her demeanor is part of the "wow" factor. Incest is generally something I think most people would associate with abuse and, at first glance anyway, both of these characters seem totally okay with it in this scene. Thanks for this first look at Anthy, to me the most fascinating character of the series. Looking forward to more as you get to later episodes.

"pink haired wedge" hehe

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#37 | Back to Top01-11-2007 11:53:07 AM

Iris
Queen of the Video Box
From: The whispers of twilight
Registered: 12-28-2006
Posts: 2124

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Superiority. "You poor little creature, but by all means, continue this."  I think there's a defenite sense of posession and knowlege of what's to come (extremely good sex.)  It's the way her two eyes don't match, and the way her litlte satisfied smile doesn't quite touch her eyes.  Although her eyes are half closed, the one eyebrow is slightly raised in amusement, as if to say "How pathetic my big brother is!  How adorable, but, none the less, I get something from it."


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#38 | Back to Top01-11-2007 12:01:39 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Iris wrote:

Although her eyes are half closed, the one eyebrow is slightly raised in amusement, as if to say "How pathetic my big brother is!  How adorable, but, none the less, I get something from it."

I did notice that, but I couldn't decide whether to use it in analysis or not, since the eyebrow could just be the art style. I left it though, since the message is the same either way, exactly that. There is a sense of superiority in her expression, absolutely. She just realizes being above him doesn't mean he's not a blast to have sex with. Akio, for his part, makes a great display of totally ignoring most of this stuff. emot-keke

I really need to just rip apart their relationship, because it's so fascinating. I think it does them a disservice to assume it's all nasty and ugly, when by all evidence, if they mesh in no other way, there is the sex, and they do enjoy it. Adorable pair, really. They both think the other is their possession, and really, neither of them are wrong. There's all that possessiveness and jealousy and hate and lust and vicious fighting under that perfect mirror surface...

God damn I love this show. etc-wankgirl


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#39 | Back to Top01-11-2007 11:16:42 PM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Am I the only one who doesn't view their relationship as... well, so openly nasty and ugly...? I dunno, when I came into fandom I was really startled at how people thought they were ripping each other apart all the time -- not that they aren't, necessarily, and not that their relationship isn't completely based on view that they're each possessions of each other, but I really do see a lot of very, very twisted love involved. I didn't think it was so completely hostile, in other words.

Remember that scene towards the end, where Anthy is gasping in pain over the swords and Akio says, "In pain, Anthy? It's not my fault" -- I personally thought the angry anxiety in Akio's voice was genuine. I haven't examined Akio like I should so maybe I'm missing something glaring, but Akio does seem to me to be genuinely sorry that Anthy is basically a human pincushion. Not sorry enough to keep her from being said pincushion in his stead -- he definitely cares exponentially more about himself than her -- but still. His behavior towards the whole situation is resentful to the extreme, even accounting for the fact he knows Anthy does it willingly and even enjoys it to a degree. I dunno, maybe I've totally bought the lie. emot-smile

Also, can I put in a vote, if it's applicable, to analyze a few of the pictures of the cast naked, set against the background of their theme color? I mean this series: http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/maison/Alone30.jpg emot-biggrin I found them all very telling. They're not a part of the series, so they may not be fair game, but it's worth a shot. And hey, they are naked...

Last edited by Syna (01-11-2007 11:17:06 PM)

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#40 | Back to Top01-12-2007 01:19:22 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Syna wrote:

Am I the only one who doesn't view their relationship as... well, so openly nasty and ugly...? I dunno, when I came into fandom I was really startled at how people thought they were ripping each other apart all the time -- not that they aren't, necessarily, and not that their relationship isn't completely based on view that they're each possessions of each other, but I really do see a lot of very, very twisted love involved. I didn't think it was so completely hostile, in other words.

Remember that scene towards the end, where Anthy is gasping in pain over the swords and Akio says, "In pain, Anthy? It's not my fault" -- I personally thought the angry anxiety in Akio's voice was genuine. I haven't examined Akio like I should so maybe I'm missing something glaring, but Akio does seem to me to be genuinely sorry that Anthy is basically a human pincushion. Not sorry enough to keep her from being said pincushion in his stead -- he definitely cares exponentially more about himself than her -- but still. His behavior towards the whole situation is resentful to the extreme, even accounting for the fact he knows Anthy does it willingly and even enjoys it to a degree. I dunno, maybe I've totally bought the lie. emot-smile

No, you're certainly not the only one -- although I believe that the relationship between the siblings has changed/evolved/degenerated quite extensively since the days of Dios, I think at the heart of it all Anthy and Akio love one another. I mean, what Anthy did to Akio was out of love (although there were confounding factors, certainly) and in the end, Dios/Akio more or less let her do it (sure, he wasn't exactly in fighting shape when Anthy made her decision, but he could have asked her to stop...which he didn't). So, I agree completely with what Gio says above; Anthy's body language is suggestive of a rather unusual relationship between siblings, but it very much demonstrates that there is love there. It's just a very possessive love, which is why I think Utena became such a problem in their relationship...they both wanted Utena for their own reasons (Akio was using her in his little quest, Anthy found Utena appealed to her in the sense she was much like the Dios she had loved so dearly), and they both didn't want Utena to distract the other from themselves. If that makes any sense.

...yeah. I love their relationship. I eagerly await Gio's take on it. emot-dance


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#41 | Back to Top01-12-2007 08:54:57 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Clarice wrote:

...yeah. I love their relationship. I eagerly await Gio's take on it. emot-dance

My god that's a whole other gigantic thread. emot-redface I agree with the takes above, except that I am very hesitant to use the word love. It's loaded and a lot of the association baggage doesn't apply. They don't love each other as brother and sister, or as lovers, or as friends. I think if you could use the word love, it would be as the love one has for their favorite possession. Anthy and Akio both suffer in some way to keep the other around; Anthy's more obvious, but Akio spends his life running in circles placating her just enough to keep her from running off. They're each other's spoils of war, for better or worse, waged ages ago against the people they so easily cut now. There is definitely an attachment there, but love, I'm not so sure. That's more possible with Anthy, Akio's definition of 'love' as he would be able to experience it is so far removed from how we use the word that it throws you off in any analysis of him.

I agree though that there's a lot of depth in their relationship that's easy to mistakenly deny them credit for. They hate each other, and they have good reasons for it, but day to day I don't think they have such a hard time with each other. We assume they're always like they are later in the series, which I find hard to believe given how bad Akio is at taking it. These first few episodes, we don't see victims and that seething hate yet. It's all possessiveness and attraction, and if you can't call it love, at the very least it's something powerful enough that they've lived with each other for centuries and still value their possessions.

I might not be able to write an analysis today on account of sleeping in and getting to work late. emot-redface Was such a miserable dream, too. emot-frown

Edit:

Syna wrote:

Also, can I put in a vote, if it's applicable, to analyze a few of the pictures of the cast naked, set against the background of their theme color? I mean this series: http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/maison/Alone30.jpg emot-biggrin I found them all very telling. They're not a part of the series, so they may not be fair game, but it's worth a shot. And hey, they are naked...

You certainly can. emot-smile A lot of the series artwork I wouldn't attempt to read too much into, but in the case of that series of shots, and the colored ones of the student council, their poses are meant to illustrate the characters. Which is why I'm so bitter about Akio and Saionji not getting any love in that set. emot-mad emot-mad emot-mad I'll put those on the list. emot-smile


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#42 | Back to Top01-12-2007 09:51:03 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Syna wrote:

Remember that scene towards the end, where Anthy is gasping in pain over the swords and Akio says, "In pain, Anthy? It's not my fault" -- I personally thought the angry anxiety in Akio's voice was genuine. I haven't examined Akio like I should so maybe I'm missing something glaring, but Akio does seem to me to be genuinely sorry that Anthy is basically a human pincushion. Not sorry enough to keep her from being said pincushion in his stead -- he definitely cares exponentially more about himself than her -- but still. His behavior towards the whole situation is resentful to the extreme, even accounting for the fact he knows Anthy does it willingly and even enjoys it to a degree. I dunno, maybe I've totally bought the lie. emot-smile

I've watched that scene over and over (the part I love about that scene is that it switches to him in his white prince uniform and her naked with the swords stuck in her body). I never thought he was expressing sympathy for Anthy there. I think the scene is a metaphor for some pretty rough sex.  Certainly the white couches are no longer an option since Utena still lives there and she knows about them now.

My perception was that he's angry and nervous because he's not sure what Utena is going to do and he's taking it out on Anthy. She's also being really vocal expressing her pain. Why show him that now? Is she being vocal in protest or because she is more in touch with her feelings at this point? Not sure. Anyway, I think he's only thinking about himself. His comment only serves to absolve himself of guilt. I'd be open to hearing other interpretations...

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#43 | Back to Top01-12-2007 10:36:45 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Well just god damn blow my mind why don't you. emot-mad

Actually, the first time I saw that scene, my immediate impression was that there was something rather...sexual, about it. (By the way, Akio becomes nude as well, there's a quick moving shot where suddenly his arm is bare.) I kinda dismissed it since it seems unlikely to me, given they never bothered to symbolize the act itself before. Now that I think of it, though...she arches her back, does she not? Ever had a bad cramp? Kicked in the kidney? All the kinds of trauma I would suggest for being remotely like being stabbed with swords result in curling up, not arching. It's not the natural reaction to pain to further expose the body part that's hurting...

To be honest I've never come up with an answer to that scene that satisfies me. Or at least not an answer I can't as easily support some other way; it's incredibly ambiguous. Enough that I can explain it twenty different ways without changing my interpretation of the characters involved. It's just an analytical mess. emot-gonk


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#44 | Back to Top01-12-2007 10:52:13 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Well, throwing your head back is a classical gesture for any great, usually negative, emotion in theatrics. It can express great agony, as well,although no-one would react like that in real life. It's quite often seen in animation.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#45 | Back to Top01-12-2007 11:23:22 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Lightice wrote:

Well, throwing your head back is a classical gesture for any great, usually negative, emotion in theatrics. It can express great agony, as well,although no-one would react like that in real life. It's quite often seen in animation.

Is it? Interesting... (I'm not very familiar with theatrics.) I do know the throwing head back as exasperation, but that's something I kinda doubt's in play there. I certainly don't dispute that she's in pain, but that they'd choose that particular reaction to it, theatrical or not, seems kinda suggestive. One of those 'okay it's A but it's supposed to remind you of B' situations that pops up in the series. You know. Like this one. We know it's the Sword of Dios and she's blessing it and blah blah blah. Not what it looks like, and we're supposed to realize that.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/snaps151.jpg

I really need to watch the scene with a more critical eye. I remember Akio appears to be frustrated and he grips the steering wheel like he's almost having difficulty with controlling the car. An odd problem for him to have given he drapes his fingers casually over the wheel while burying the needle all throughout the rest of the series. If you wanted to draw sexual conclusions from that, it wouldn't be difficult. Perhaps I'll cap that scene tonight and analyze the body language here.

For now though, I owe you guys some Juri holding the sword out for Utena in episode 12. I'm cramped for time, but this is a pretty easy shot.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/snaps129.jpg

The argument I had gone with is that Juri's motivation in providing a (her, note) sword is that she's like 'kick that smug jackass off the arena platform plz'. That would be supported pretty thoroughly by her expression here. The other simple explanation was that she was one way or another instructed to provide a weapon by Ends of the World, but this seems unlikely, since in that case she would have treated this as a necessary function, something to do earlier in the day instead of waiting until Utena's on the way to the arena. It's almost spur of the moment, like Juri went home, thought for a moment, and decided to help Utena kick Touga's ass.

Juri holds the sword out straight, and her fingers are tight around the hilt. The gesture is almost suggestive of punching it toward Utena, a display of power and an offering. Juri invests an idea of power in what she's presenting Utena. She doesn't think of it just as a sword, or she attributes more power to the weapon than just sharp metal. It's what Juri thinks Utena needs to win.

Her expression is just pure determination. Her lips are drawn tight, it's not a frown, but rather the muscular stiffness of intensity. There's no way to animate it in the SKU style, but this expression would be accompanied by a tightened jaw, and in a real person, you'd be able to see the masseter muscle in front of the ears bulge a little. We don't need that cue though, we have her lips, and her eyes, which are open fully, but not wide-eyed, because her eyebrows are drawn down sharply. Again, in a look of determination and concentration. There's a hint of anger in the degree of determination she's exhibiting, but it's without focus on the person she's looking at. We're looking at determination brought on partly by anger, but not anger on its own. It's simply something that has bothered her enough to act strongly in rebellion against it. Whether that's Touga being a jackass or Juri wanting Utena to stop being girlygirlgirl is up to interpretation. emot-smile


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#46 | Back to Top01-12-2007 11:24:57 AM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
Posts: 105
Website

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Yeah, come to think of it, in that series, there's Kanae, but there's no Akio or Saionji! emot-confused (There's also some unnamed short-haired person who could only I guess be Miki or Tswabuki but doesn't look like them... at any rate, that's strange.)

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#47 | Back to Top01-12-2007 11:26:29 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

I believe that's Tatsuya.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#48 | Back to Top01-12-2007 12:12:14 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Is it? Interesting... (I'm not very familiar with theatrics.) I do know the throwing head back as exasperation, but that's something I kinda doubt's in play there. I certainly don't dispute that she's in pain, but that they'd choose that particular reaction to it, theatrical or not, seems kinda suggestive.

Well, head is usually thrown back in sorrow, horror, rage, wicked glee or, as in this case, agony. One animation scene comes in mind - in the second episode of Texhnolyze, the main character whose arm has been cut off first curls up, gasping for breath, but then stands up, throws his head back and screams continuously for several seconds.
I would say that throwing one's head back in pain is meant to give an impression of letting out the agony previously pent in.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#49 | Back to Top01-12-2007 06:29:32 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

First a back track
Correct me if I am wrong but at the climax of the BR arc we see Mamiya change into Anthy and I believe she has a similar serene goddess-like gaze. More than once we see them as sibling gods doing what sibling gods often do -- commit incest.  No bourgeois hangups for them. They seem to almost enjoy flaunting the petty morality of lesser people. I believe that only Utena disturbs that serenity.

SIMULTANEOUSLY they are riding the car together each suffering in their own way from the hatred of the world. That car ride has been going on for eons.

If Anthy arched forward it would look more natural but then we couldn't see her face. I noticed that in Japanese she groans more softly.

Juri.
I wonder if Juri isn't trying to minimize the chance of Utena performing another miracle. If she wins with a better sword, that makes it less miraculous. Really though I think Juri is showing a flash of femine solidarity plain and simple. If you want to be un-simple perhaps Juri calculates that SHE has a better chance against Utena than Touga in the end, although I don't think that's a likely scenario. It does seem like Utena is everybody's second choice.

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#50 | Back to Top01-12-2007 09:33:48 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Come with me, on an SKU body language tour! Meals included!

Squee! Thanks Gio! It's all interpreted now, so I know sort of why she's doing what she did! And hotness. etc-wankdude


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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