purplepolecat wrote:

Anime News Network has a list of the 6 "shojo deconstruction" anime that paved the way for PMMM. Some of you may be familiar with the #1 spot.

Has anyone seen any of the other shows?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/the-list/2012-09-29

Oh god, Minki Momo D:

I saw that back in 5th grade. Honestly, for the longest time I did not see that ending coming. Even the opening was happy!

gorgeousshutin wrote:

I remember how I was initially put off by Utena's flamboyantly shoujo art style and costumes, to the point that I almost missed out on what turned out to be THE best anime series of all times.

That being said, PMMM, with its super cutsy-looking female characters, is really, really giving me the eye strain.  Even knowing of its reportedly rich/dark story, I remain skeptical as to whether such fluffy-looking characters (and the voice actresses behind them) can truly convey the drama at hand (i.e. will the show end up being flawed by flat, uncharismatic characters just like Mawaru-Penguindrum?).  For now, I'll wait for the feature film to debut before again considering whether I'd give this a try.

I don't think the characters were as strong as the story in PMMM, but they're definitely a lot better than the characters in Penguindrum. By the end I really did care about them (and I cried, buckets.) I'd heard PMMM had problems with characters and pacing, so I was actually really pleasantly suprised. It's definitely the best anime I've seen in a long time.

It also makes a great rewatch since you know so much more the second time round.

Honey Bear, OnlyInThisLight . . . thanks for giving your takes on PMMM.   Being that I personally prefer character-driven stories over plot driven ones, to the point that I can sometimes stomach in-comprehensive/murky plots if the characters are vivid and charismatic (thus why I enjoyed Loveless, and even the widely-hated No. 6) , PMMM is sounding less and less like my kind of show.  I'm sure it's plot is stunningly strong from what I've been hearing about it (I heard that the trippy Faust story is incorporated into this somehow), but the ultra-loli character designs, coupled with the chars' own plot-device qualities, will likely ruin it for me.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

not simply because the designs are 'loli' -which they aren't.

Well, they kind of are. I was shocked when I found out that PMMM's cast is supposed to be just as old as SKU's; they look much younger.

To gorgeous: Aw, don't give up on it so easily. It's actually pretty good. The characters aren't just plot devices, they develop in highly different and distinct ways that provide for interesting twists in the story.

How old are they?  Cast members in SKU ranged from 13, 14 to 17 and they all looked WAY older and more developed than they should have, with long legs, big boobs and curvy hips*.  I pegged the characters in MM to be around 13-15. 

To me, terms like Loli imply a sort of sexualization, fetishizing or romanticizing of the characters youth, innocence or sad backstory.  Just because a character is drawn to look prepubescent and with large eyes (because it is anime we are discussing) does not mean they are moe/loli.   Madoka is the only character from the bunch one would even describe as shy or weepy, but it is presented in contexts that make it more than understandable and forgivable, and its not done to make her look cute/virginal. 

That same exploratory and bunt dialogue that makes them less fun/difficult to figure out is also what makes them seem a bit more 'real' than the characters in SKU, despite the fact that the SKU characters were more complex and original (and forgiving that SKU had nearly 3x as much length to do that).


*Especially Touga, who had the biggest boobs of them all.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (09-30-2012 02:06:09 PM)

I want QB plushie.  I'd make a contract for a QB Plushie.  :^D

Oops, I think you're a magical girl now OnlyInThisLight! XD

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

"I don't think the characters were as strong as the story" Is a good way of phrasing some my own issues with the characters.  Aside from Homura and somewhat Sayaka, for the most part their characters, while certainly not shallow, serve the plot and do not go much further than that, and are not given much subtly to interpret.  Once again, this a show even younger viewers can for the most part 'get' in terms of the character's motivations because everything about who they are and what they want is pretty much stated in dialogue. 

I would have given anything if just a tad bit more originality had been put into the first three episodes between Madoka and her friends (that same writing skill we see in her relationship with her mom).  I know they were going for a certain innocently shoujo set-up, but something actually touching and more importantly unique during these moments between Sayaka, Madoka and Hitomi in their dialogue and activities would have done wonders for the dramatic impact of Sayaka's story.  Because when Kyoko mentions after Sayaka's, erm, fall, that Madoka was Sayaka's best friend a part of me felt like that moment kinda fell flat.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head here. Because in some ways I think the characterisation of the girls is really quite good (esp since there's only 12 episodes to do it in!) I think it's because their motivations and feelings are so transparent that it seems otherwise. There's not much mystery about the five main girls-- which the exeption of Homura, which is probably the reason why she's so popular. If you compare that with characters from Utena (Juri, Miki, almost anyone) the interesting part is trying to figure out what they want and why they act in the way they do. Like you said the dialogue in Madoka kind of does that for you, and it takes part of the fun out of it.

Yeah, I didn't feel like I was talked down to in Madoka, although the characters are relatively simple. Also, once you know the nature of the witches, the fighting scenes inside the barriers might get more interesting.

And the fighting scenes look awesome, yeah.

I'd totally get a Kyubey plushie. At least if it was well-made.

Homura's body language is in her lack thereof.  Trust me.  Instead, the animators emote with her hair.   It's not the girly sway of her hips that reflects on her ambiance of cool disaffection, it's that long, witch-like black hair swirling around her unmoving face that does.  I'm trying not to spoil anything, but realize that Homura made a certain expression when Madoka could see her, and an entirely different one when she could.  There is a reason for that. 

Honestly, I'm not going to argue the merits of style on the characters.  They are drawn in a typical "cute" fashion for a reason, and they are drawn well.  Within that style, the artists make a lot of efforts to make the character art original and pleasing to the eye-the visible, pencil-like lineart on the eyes, the light toned line-art in general and thick lines on the jaws.  If you look closely, you'll even notice how the characters have differing facial shapes.  The coloring of the background is muted along with the characters, that way the intense color schemes of the characters aren't so jarring and out of place looking.  Whether or not one likes this look is a purely subjective measure -the character's are well drawn, well colored and it's obvious a lot of creative thought went into their design. 

If you are going to nitpick certain elements of the show before you've even seen more than a single episode, I can't say you're going to have a great viewing experience.  It's great to be analytical and you should never shut that off when viewing anything, but keep in mind many of us here have already seen the show and our dissecting of it is based on it as a whole, not episode by episode.  Thus we can't really join you in your style of analysis/commentary -we can only refute it with knowledge/opinions on the rest of the series we have and you don't.   (See above)  The best we can do is encourage you to watch more.

Yeah, some of the Labyrinths had AMAZING presentations, while some were just sort of more photoshop/cut and paste.  They all had distinct and really cool narratives, they just aren't specifically explored in show.  The Wiki has them though, and they are worth a look.

Honey Bear wrote:
An nod towards Utena maybe?

PMMM's definite nod towards Utena seems to be the heroine's ending: ( Madoka's eventual self-sacrifice, with her taking on the negative energies of the Seeds in the end (just like how Utena willingly/unknowingly took the Swords of Hate) and then being "forgotten" by close friends and/or erased off her original plane of reality as price incurred for saving people. )

Yes, I've since watched the whole thing (which again explains why Seinen Kakumei part 10 is still not out yet ).  Love the stunning plot operating on multiple AUs and personal sacrifices (9/10), love the background art that reminds me of that sci-fi Count of Monte Anime (9.5/10), love some of the characters' dialogues (especially those from Madoka's Mom and Dad) . . .

<warning: downer ahead>











. . . but CANNOT, for the life of me, love any of those magical girl characters, whose faces could only "change style" during the utmost dramatic moments to convey pain and horror, but is generic/tool-like on all the lighter character-interaction moments that requires subtly in expression, body languages.  The jarringly lack of and/or unrealistic body languages displayed by the girls throughout like 80% of this anime is too, too prominent a flaw to ignore:  Madoka's shoujo-vapid smiley expressions and playful skipping/perky hip-swaying throughout even the utmost dramatic moments (like in that scene with her  final goodbye with her mom: that was that lack of depth to her expression and her girly skipping away afterwards ) is atmosphere-shattering.  And Homura . . . the only female I've watched capable of acting/emoting with her hair is Portia Di Rossi in Ally Mcbeal (and that, Homura is not).  The least "jarring" of the lot is the blue-haired girl self-sacrificing to save a musician boy she loves, but even she is not that charismatic.   It's like PMMM is this well-made Japanese TV drama (which I've watched plenty) with stunning script, music, and art-direction, but the young cast in it are idol-wannabes who are inexperienced actors, whom the director directs in such a way that makes sure their smiles stay pretty and their postures stay cute through most of their screen times - except in those specific scenes when they are subjected to blatant violence/trauma, when horror-factor is played up to give the viewers chills. 

The show, in its entirety, is different from the shoujo norm in that there is seinen anime violence/grit scatter throughout - but these characters and the way they are drawn, animated, and voiced will put off anyone who is not a hardcore fan of conventional shoujo-character portrayals (like, someone who instead truly wants to see semi-realistically-acted character interactions like in SKU, Please Save My Earth and such will be left disappointed).       

Total score: (7.5/10)  when it could've been so much better given the plot and background art

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (10-03-2012 11:07:56 AM)

Lurv wrote:
Ooh, I never thought about the similarities there. emot-biggrin Too bad a crossover would never work though. >_>

Should the two shows cross, Tsuwabuki will finally have a chance of getting over his insecurity, being that he'd be surrounded by girls supposedly older than his Nanami-sama, but with appearances and manners that would make even him seem mature by comparison. 

Oh, and the cunning non-Utena chars in SKU will have much fun effortlessly mind-screwing (or outright screwing) the hell out of the entire magic girl lot.  Hell, Akio will so ditch Anthy if he'd ever get his hands on any one the PMMM girls, all of whom being so much easier to manipulate than his crafty sister or even Utena, and all have direct means of giving him back the full Power of Dios via one single (self-sacrificing) wish (and we know how much Akio enjoys sacrificing others for his own gains).

I was most bothered by how childlike it made the adults look though. Good thing the story didn't focus much on them, because that would make it hard to take seriously.

Bad thing is that the adults are the ones with the most meaningful, mature dialogues.  And when I see those lines getting spewed by grown ups who look so hard to distinguish from the young ones . . .