Giovanna wrote:

Jellineck wrote:

But let me see if I can put this simply...it's like putting together a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle only to find out it's that damned goatse picture (if you don't know, don't ask).

Glorious.

You and I seem to see Akio and Touga the same way, we just differ on what we take out of it.

For me, the 'worst' character is definitely Touga. He's worse than Akio. Why? Because he is human, and it makes him capable of a redemption Akio isn't, and yet he still doesn't do it.

What!? Akio 'isn't' human?
In the movie, I know he died, but in the series, I think Dios was just a symbol of him before acting as a prince..
(Sorry, I'm quite new here, so I'm as knowledgeable as you guys are about this anime)

@Jellineck
Right on! Nicely put in Akio..

What about Saionji? He slaps Himemiya for no reason at times..

I see.. Yep, just read your post too in the other thread.. XD

Oh yeah, someone posted about Anthy being numb or unconscious about being mean like wiping her glass with Akio's fiancee's scarf (forgot her name, sorry)

There are times when you feel too much of pain and too much of thousands of swords sticking in you that you cannot help but feel the whole world is cruel, and you in turn act like a jerk to people and you may pretend not to realize (Anthy's quite sharp and smart but acts too much of a doormat or pretending not knowing a thing at times or avoids it) how cruel you are by doing simple distracting things, and you also feel you've been stripped off your purpose, thus "Rose Bride" would suit her perfectly.. No matter how great an event might take place, doesn't matter to you, it will only do if it involves the one causing your pain (Thus, explains why Anthy's usual "Rose Bride" self let loose her 'real' self in her coffin when Utena reminds her of Dios)

Well, speaking from experience, that is.. blehh..

Or it could be because the girl's sleeping with her dear brother..

Last edited by Stephanie (10-06-2007 02:56:43 PM)

I agree that Utena can be terribly annoying. To me it's her complete lack of understanding that gets to me. True, plenty of characters suffer from this but most have a lot of issues that alienate them from establishing empathy. Utena, on the other hand, is just clueless for the sake of being clueless. She even manages to miss the problems of those that are very close to her such as Wakaba.
The fact that she fails to guess Akio's intentions until it is too late makes me wonder whether she truly is innocent, hopelessly naïve or less than intelligent.

Jellineck wrote:

Tamago, that picture made me spit out my drink all over the keyboard and burst my guts right through my stomach. I hope you're happy.

Sorry! I hope you're not using a laptop, replacing an entire laptop due to milk was what happened to my last laptop.

I agree that Utena can be terribly annoying. To me it's her complete lack of understanding that gets to me. True, plenty of characters suffer from this but most have a lot of issues that alienate them from establishing empathy. Utena, on the other hand, is just clueless for the sake of being clueless. She even manages to miss the problems of those that are very close to her such as Wakaba.
The fact that she fails to guess Akio's intentions until it is too late makes me wonder whether she truly is innocent, hopelessly naïve or less than intelligent.

The thing that cracked me up is that Nanami, of all people, saw the real situation long before Utena did. Whenever she's not around Touga (or not in a comic episode), Nanami is surprisingly frank and clear-headed. For all of her naivete, she catches onto darker things pretty easily. More obstinate than stupid.

Still, you know you're a bit thick when you make Nanami look like the sensible one.

Jellineck wrote:

I agree that Utena can be terribly annoying. To me it's her complete lack of understanding that gets to me. True, plenty of characters suffer from this but most have a lot of issues that alienate them from establishing empathy. Utena, on the other hand, is just clueless for the sake of being clueless. She even manages to miss the problems of those that are very close to her such as Wakaba.
The fact that she fails to guess Akio's intentions until it is too late makes me wonder whether she truly is innocent, hopelessly naïve or less than intelligent.

The thing that cracked me up is that Nanami, of all people, saw the real situation long before Utena did. Whenever she's not around Touga (or not in a comic episode), Nanami is surprisingly frank and clear-headed. For all of her naivete, she catches onto darker things pretty easily. More obstinate than stupid.

Still, you know you're a bit thick when you make Nanami look like the sensible one.

Well, with Nanami, the whole "having sex with one's brother" thing was already on her mind. I think a lot of us, if put in the same situation, wouldn't suspect anything either.

Edit: For all Utena annoys the hell out of me, it just makes me love her more.

Last edited by NajiMinkin (10-07-2007 10:15:53 AM)

While I found Utena's lack of insight to be somewhat annoying I must admit that it is necessary in the series. It's a breath of fresh air, for lack of a better term, especially if we take into consideration that in SKU events tend to be caught in perpetual repetition. Also, Utena is pretty much the one major character that lacks serious emotional conflicts which might be why she is also to perceive the world in such a simple and almost child-like way.

I think that it is very possible that Nanami saw a darker reflection of her own relationship with her brother in the blatant incest between Anthy and Akio. One of the reasons why she was so utterly shocked is due to the fact that it resonated very powerful with her situation, she suddenly saw it as something wrong and twisted.

Stephanie has a point regarding Anthy's malice or lack thereof. Her constant suffering as the Rose Bride as been internalized to the point that it alienates her completly from others. Compared to what she has gone through the pain of the rest of the cast must feel a tad trivial. One of the things that keep Anthy from becoming a likable character is that she is the living prood that victims can become manipulators and that the line between being abused and being the abuser can be very thin.

Last edited by Nocturnalux (10-07-2007 05:03:45 PM)

Since Utena's parents died, it's practically normal she'll look for a family in her friends, say Wakaba, Anthy and Akio.. They're all she's close to, other than that, she's got nothing left to feel where she belongs to that's why she fought for Wakaba's sake in Saionji to protect her friend.

Also, after watching Nanji's funny Utena videos, I realized one more reason why I dislike Utena:
3.) The scene where Saionji slapped Anthy even though Utena is wedded to her, after that event, Utena said, "I'm gonna lose purposely to Saionji" to Anthy.. And after seeing what he just did to her.. o_O

(-__-)"

Hmm, all this talk of Utena has given me an idea - what if Akio and Anthy aren't the only ones caught in their Jungian Archetypal roles?

I mean, really, Utena is the Child (or perhaps Puella Aeturnus), and a Sacrificial Hero. She's an innocent, trusting, naive, all the things that piss us off most . Just as Anthy is tightly bound to her position as Witch, and Akio to his as the Devil (to an extent. I'm still not sure how best to classify him), Utena is caught up in the role that she is certain her existence has for her.
Thus, her almost willful ignorance throughout the series, that inability to look beyond the surface and the simple solution, is an expression of her desire to remain within this valiant, foolish role. She can't be capable of understanding the emotional intricacies and hang-ups of the people around her, nor can she be aware of Akio's intention, because to behave as such would mean that she is not the role she wants to play.

This also explains the carousel scene and Utena's sudden return to the battle. She has begun to doubt her desires, begun to realise that this role is not the only one she may occupy. When she is struck down by Anthy, that ultimate betrayal of the noble Hero by the Witch, she also confronts her behaviour. The cyclical and gaudy carousel, the shadowy Dios, these elements all indicate that her ideals are shrouded in memory altered for convenience, that the reality she has based her role on is much more complex than what she believed it to be.
So she makes a decision, and breaks her archetypal duties in order to make something of the emotional connection she shares with Anthy, to give her freedom if she can.

This would be why she apologises for "playing prince" for so long. She has become aware of her place as a real person beyond the limits of a single aspect of identification, and is thus crushed by the swords, which are perhaps a metaphor more for the existential ache of awareness than they are truly a symbol of human spite.

This would make more sense if I was a bit more awake, I think.

Jellineck wrote:

Also, Utena is pretty much the one major character that lacks serious emotional conflicts which might be why she is also to perceive the world in such a simple and almost child-like way.

I don't see that as necessarily true. We are made to believe that for most of the series, but just as Anthy begins to gain depth and complexity, so does Utena. She's suffered quite a bit. After all, she lost her parents and has grown up quite alone. A memory of a tormented young girl lingers in the back of her mind, suppressed and painted over by a pretty image of a prince saving his princess.

This is an interesting theory on my bit, but I think Utena intentionally blots out what she sees quite subconsciously. She doesn't seem to remember the coffin incident, as she treats Touga as a complete stranger (though her confusing him with her prince may have something to do with that subconscious memory). She's adapted it as a method of survival.

Also, I don't think her innocence results from her lack of experience. It results from her being quite lonely. She trusts people because she wants to believe that they can care for her and she can do likewise (specifically Anthy and Akio). Look at Wakaba and Utena's protective affection for her. Wakaba acts in an openly caring and very motherly way. I think that Utena responds because she wants to feel cared for, and she acts so protective because she wants to prevent another disaster like the death of her parents.

As for Akio, I firmly believe she also perceived him as a father figure of sorts. Or at least someone to take care of her. In the end, she has to decide between being cared for (Akio) or caring (Anthy). I see her as very strong for choosing the latter, as well as enduring yet more tragedy from those she trusts with strength and dignity.

That said, that's why I like her sometimes and dislike her others. Towards the ends of the series, she has to be one of the most interesting characters of all. For people like me, it just takes time for that development.

You do have a point. I shall re-phrase my position: Utena issues do not have an operative value in that she is not caught up in them as the rest of the cast. In other words, she has indeed suffered quite a bit but she believes, during most of the series at least, that finding her prince has paved a road for rising above herself. While the rest of the cast is either desperate to find a way of overcome some inner flaw or too desperate to believe that such a thing can even happen, Utena is in a different position in that she already has had "her miracle" and "her shining thing" in the form of her prince. Of course we know that this is a construction of her part, that her memories contradict the princely ideal of Dios, but during most of the series Utena is unaware of this herself, at least in a conscious level.
Regarding her loneliness, I agree that Utena seems to have led a rather lonely life and that she craves affection. Many a time she states how she would like to know how family bonds feel, mainly those between parent and child and between siblings. It is ironic because the situations she seems to envy are considerably dark and full emotional breakdowns of which she is oblivious. It might be because she is so unattached that she escapes from the hangups of the rest of the cast, in SKU as in real life is often the case, one is hurt the most by those closest to one.

I agree that Utena sees Akio as a fatherly figure, he sets himself to be perceived as such.

Almaser stated what I wanted to say but never got around to actually typing, Utena is set on remaining innocent through and through which means she cannot equate messy emotional situations in which "right" and "wrong" are so blurred that it becomes difficult to tell them apart.

As to the question of whether Utena fulfils her role as the prince or goes counter it by reaching out to Anthy I have yet to decide. Perhaps what is needed is a new kind of prince, not one who is flawless and innocent- it seems clear that by the end of the series Utena has seriously compromised herself with her entanglement with Akio- but one is bent on trying his/her best despite all the flaws that being human irrevocably carries.

Last edited by Nocturnalux (10-08-2007 07:06:48 PM)

About Saionji:

CHIHO-HIME: Utena refers to the flower petal...

CHIHO-HIME: Anthy is Greek for the flower that's supported by those petals.

MODERATOR: <Akio-no-Miko> What were the thoughts behind the character Saionji

CHIHO-HIME: He probably is a representative of the old fashioned Japanese male.

So, tada! The real reason why he slaps Anthy, that mean male!

Giovanna wrote:

Stephanie wrote:

CHIHO-HIME: He probably is a representative of the old fashioned Japanese male.

God, I hope that means he's into shibari.
(I guess Saito and Ikuhara don't much approve of traditional Japanese culture!)

I had to look that one up on Wikipedia   It says there that shibari is less than a century old, though -- which by Japanese standards makes it a young upstart, certainly not traditional.  (By contrast, tentacle porn dates back to at least 1820, and I think I remember seeing a tentacle porn statuette dated to before that; oiran, the prostitutes most of us mistakenly call geisha, were around as early as 1600.)

So Saionji may not be into bondage, but he likes tentacle porn and loves prostitutes! 

As to the question of whether Utena fulfils her role as the prince or goes counter it by reaching out to Anthy I have yet to decide. Perhaps what is needed is a new kind of prince, not one who is flawless and innocent- it seems clear that by the end of the series Utena has seriously compromised herself with her entanglement with Akio- but one is bent on trying his/her best despite all the flaws that being human irrevocably carries.

I am of the theory that Utena never attained princehood: rather, she did something far more powerful. She realized that the strength she was seeking did not come from a fantasy ideal. But rather, from being a friend and a person content with her place. Her relationship with Akio could be seen as contamination, as I would imagine Anthy inerprets it, but it also allows her to perceive reality. Unlike other characters, she does not create fantasies to keep her mired in her old world. She becomes more down-to-earth and realistic towards the end of the series. Others describe it as "turning into a normal girl" or "becoming more girlish". In truth, she is just making the transition between a naive girl and a mature wiser woman. In other words, she is slowly breaking out of her own coffin.

I interpret that infamous ending line, "I guess I couldn't be your prince after all", as partial defeat and partial acceptance of her role as a friend, not as a fantasy savior. This transition confuses others because, arguably, she is the strongest character in the series. No matter the loss of her childhood dream, she remains focused on her love of her childhood friend.

But still, despite all this, she sometimes pisses me off just a tad. Otherwise, she's one of the few main characters I actually like. I usually despise main characters. Kudos to this series for having a protagonist as fascinating as the secondary characters.