Lightice wrote:

Utena's body, her living body is inside her car, but a rule can't be derived from a single example.

Shiori's body is inside her car. Wakaba isn't anywhere else to be seen. Why don't you present some evidence that her body is not in the car?

Who are the other cars, in that case? Remember that the tunnel is filled with cars. But even if Kozue's body is there, it's no indication that Miki'd had anything to do with putting it in there.

Except of course that nobody else would have, and it rises behind Miki - who is down in the car garage for some reason - exactly when he smirks, talking about he's always wanted power.

Except that there is nothing, absolutely nothing to imply that Miki did anything of the sort. You don't even have circumstancial evidence for this. No kind of reference, whatsoever. You only have a feeling, based on an interpretation of the purpose of the position of a rubber duck, which can be understood in several ways and proven in none.

I have what he said, and everything in the scene that supports it. If you want to ignore blatent symbolism in the Utena movie, go right ahead - but then you leave precious little else.

You believe Miki is held back by Kozue based on basically nothing; not his actions, and not his words.

Unlikely. But he isn't series Miki, which I know and acknowledge. However, as I pointed out, none of the movie's characters is completely unrecognisable in relation to their series counterparts.

And as I pointed out, you are wrong. Many of the movie characters are just as unrecognisable as an arrogant, ruthless Miki. More so, even, in the case of Touga, who bears no resemblence to his series self except in a) being adopted and b) having red hair.

No, she turns into a car (which is, in itself a choice, I might mention - no-one forced her in that role) in order to prevent anyone else from escaping the world. That is her choice, though not a very good one.

It's a meaningless choice. Shiori affects nothing in the movie, as I just pointed out. Her becoming a car changes absolutely nothing for anybody but getting herself killed... despite her fervent desire for it to be otherwise. I believe that's quite deliberate... if you don't accept that point, her character becomes meaningless, since she serves no particular role in the plot except getting Juri to duel (which could be easily accomplished without her).

I didn't say she didn't make choices. I said her choices don't matter. And they don't. Movie Shiori wants desperately to matter; it's the root of her character. She never does. Not even once. She is at best an accessory to people doing things that do matter, which puts her in the same class as Wakaba.

Mindless? Was Shiori a "mindless machine"?

Perhaps that's good evidence for why Kozue didn't turn herself into a car, unlike Shiori. None of the horde of black cars which Kozue joins have names, or voices, or personalities. They are specifically and explicitly compared on-screen by the Shadow Girls to a swarm of locusts, mindless insects seeking only to destroy. 

If you think the black cars had human minds, in direct contradiction to the comparison to a swarm of locusts, please present your evidence.

Sorry, but your logic is completely impervious to me, at this point. How not seeing Kozue in a place, where she isn't supposed to be in any case and where she wouldn't fulfill any kind of story-function can in any way be seen as a truth of her murder? Seriously, I think that you are making an incredibly big deal about a single cameo - something that'd completely change the movie's nature and destroy its conclusion.

First, kindly stop making straw men. I said Kozue is murdered because she IS in a place where she shouldn't be, and because it is incredibly heavily implied Miki disposed of her by his words and the imagery which accompanies his words.

Second... "Change the movie's nature"? "Destroy it's conclusion"? Balogna. Miki is barely even relevent to the movie. His singular plot-relevent act was not knowing what Touga is. Nor does him being a ruthless bastard - which Saionji and Juri also are - mean anything to the movie's "nature" or "conclusion".

"Miki is a cold-blooded, murdering psychopath but...never mind, it doesn't matter, forget about it."

"Saionji is a frothing-at-the-mouth psychotic lunatic but... never mind, it doesn't matter, forget about it."
"Nanami is a cow but... never mind, it doesn't matter, forget about it."
"Hey Kozue is... never mind, it doesn't matter, forget about it."
"Wakaba is a jeep! Never mind, it doesn't matter, forget about it."
"The Shadow Girls... ha ha ha. Hey, C-ko's here!"

Does this sound like good storytelling to you, even in the surreal, symbolical setting of the movie-Ohtori? Indeed, especially in the setting such as this? It makes absolutely no sense in relation to rest of the movie.

The movie doesn't feature good storytelling. It's a confused mess which half wants to be related to the TV series, half wants to be itself, and half wants to be Ikuhara's last LSD trip. The movie is very pretty with a few interesting ideas, and is otherwise half-baked nonsense.

It doesn't feature good storytelling if you're right about Miki, and it doesn't feature good storytelling if I am.

Kindly explain how Miki being a jerk makes "absolutely no sense", and Saionji being a jerk is okay.

I would beg differ. You are making him worse than he is. He is a shameless playboy and a selfish bastard, but completely lacks physical cruelty, at least as far as the series demonstrates and is, ultimately still an adolescent boy playing games, even though his setting is much wider than most. He wouldn't rape Nanami, as you suggest - I strongly doubt he could actually rape anybody.

So...  I guess you figure he would viciously mentally torture Nanami, and would sexually molest Nanami (both of which he does on-screen), but sure wouldn't rape anyone. Because of all those nice things he did at... some point?

What exactly is your strong doubt based on?

And no, I don't think he could kill even for the Power of Dios, in his right mind. That's not his style.

So, he's perfectly willing to get taken up the ass by Akio in order to get inside info, and he's perfectly willing to viciously torture people, and he couldn't care less about putting the moves on his sister, and he is Akio's willing and knowing partner in everything he does, and he believes Anthy is less than human, and he treats women like objects (all on-screen), but he wouldn't kill someone to get the thing he wants more than anything else in the world?

Because that would... conflict with his sense of style?

(That's the same inviolable style that led him to come out wearing shorts and box with a kangaroo, right?)

Would you care to give the slightest shred of on-screen evidence that there is anything Touga wouldn't do for power? Something Touga could do for power, has the opportunity to do, and does not in fact do because of moral qualms (or, I suppose, aesthetic qualms)? I can't think of a single thing. Not one.

Not even Akio would kill with light heart, although his reasons aren't bound with empathy.

Would you care to give the slightest iota of evidence that Akio wouldn't kill without the slightest hesitation if it suited his purpose, or that he would in any way be burdened by doing so?

I mean, we know he deliberately orchestrated the deaths of 100 people and gave no indication of giving a damn, so there's 100 pieces of burnt evidence that you're incorrect in this assumption.

Sorry, but you can stop saying "we", here. I have a very different view of the series-Touga, as well as movie-Miki. I do say that series-Touga still cares about Nanami, although he cares about the power he's trying to gain more.

He let her continue to believe they're not siblings because he's such a sweet guy? That's also why he took her on a car ride with Akio? And why he macked on Keiko right in front of her and talked about how he'd never cared about Nanami while being perfectly aware she was eavesdropping? Once again, could you give the slightest shred of evidence that Touga cares about Nanami?

And he would even kill some random person for his goals - he is emotionally and morally a lazy person. That is, he isn't one to put himself in situation that could cause emotional or moral stress, if he can avoid it. And although with his loose morals that is relatively easy, especially as he is skilled at putting the blame on the victim in his mind, there are actions where it just doesn't work.

And the evidence for this would be...? You seem to be quite offended that I think Movie Miki is a jerk based on his dialogue and the imagery accompanying it (ignoring that you base your theory on ignoring the imagery and making out his dialogue to mean something other than what he says), so please hold yourself to the same standard of proof you want to hold others to.

Yasha's covered it, here. The air is getting a bit thick, but it's a thread like this that really betrays how personal SKU is for us. There are so many great points being raised, but it's sounding like you two are defending your positions more than sharing ideas about the material. I wholeheartedly believe SKU was designed to be interpreted differently by everyone. To create discussion like this, and make us think. I know it sounds kinda fluffy foofoo, but I really want threads like this to be about sharing ideas, not feeling like you have to defend your position. There's no point in debate if your view isn't open to development. This forum has already changed my opinion on all kinds of things about SKU for the better, and that's enriching. My heart goes all fluttery whenever anyone says 'Wow, I hadn't thought of it that way before.' That's what I want this to be about. Not so much taking a stand and defending positions, but letting ideas come out and see where it takes us. 

Which is what I'll do now, since I'm as close to tabula rasa as one gets with the movie.

Stuff about the nature of the cars.

Actually, I never assumed the cars were a one way thing. I equated them with soul swords, because they seemed to me to serve a similar purpose. The use of inner strength projected into a material thing that can help you get where you need to be. Utena becomes a car to get through the obstacles before her, but goes back to being Utena (sans clothes) in the end. The cars seemed to me to represent the embodiment of the characters at their full potential right then. Shiori becomes a car because she's pulling out all the stops in an effort to keep Utena held back. Wakaba becomes a car because she wants her full strength to help. Of course, just like the soul kept in a person's body, such things can be broken, or in this case, crashed. Utena's car gets kicked around and almost crushed, but it remakes itself anew and strong from the experience, very much like Utena's sense of goodness and nobility in the series; it's challenged, beat up a lot, but it persists and becomes stronger.

I'd honestly need to rewatch the movie to properly support this, but since it's grossly against what everyone else is saying, I'm going to toss it in as a thought. Where it concerns Kozue, what if Miki's behavior in that scene is spurred by Kozue? She's a car, and every other example of this in the movie shows that that's when they're at their full power, for good or ill. That Kozue is, in any form, present there, suggests she's so voluntarily, and I take the rubber ducky being there to represent the influence on his behavior. I can't help wonder if Kozue encourages his powerlust and involvement in the game somehow, represented by her car being there, so that he'll be unable to leave. It's very easy to equate Kozue and Shiori in the series because they have similar levels of involvement in characters' lives, though they are themselves minor characters. In the movie, Shiori is pretty much in the informed role. What if we assume Kozue is similarly informed, or at least realizes that as long as Miki's still fighting for his 'power', he's not getting it, and not using it to get away from her. Prolong the struggle so you never have to contend with the solution.

Giovanna wrote:

OPENING YOUR MIND TO NEW WAYS OF LOOKING AT SKU

As Gio-tan covered in her post, I know that what my thoughts about certain characters and events in SKU changed from when I only read previews and essays on various subjects involving Utena and the gang to when I finally watched it from start to finish on Youtube!. 

For instance, before I saw SKU for myself, everything I read about Nanami including a few screenshots and the odd fanfic left me as a Nanami hater but by the time I finished watching SKU, I became a big Nanami fan.   When I joined this forum and people came in here offering new insights to the show and its characters as well as the symbolism and stuff like that, I changed my mind on somethings, tilted my thoughts a bit on others and in some cases it strenghen my beliefs enough to change some other peoples minds on the subjects at hand.

So open your mind and in some cases, your lions to this forum:devil:

What about the movie manga? How does it all go down in that one versus the movie? I honestly don't know, I haven't read the movie manga. I did, however, scan the naughty pictures of Touga. (And Akio...I'm confused as to why you'd drug a woman to rape her and then go down on her. )

Giovanna wrote:

What about the movie manga? How does it all go down in that one versus the movie?

At the end of the movie manga, Ghost Akio (Anthy killed him in the manga, he didn't fall out of the window) tells Ghost Touga that he created the duelling game to provide his sister with a prince since he himself was no longer alive to fulfill that role. He needed to rekindle Anthy's ability to love to keep the whole place going, blah, blah. Anthy goes to Utena and says that Utena is her prince and so now Utena can be prince of the school and have all her wishes granted. Utena says she doesn't want to be Anthy's master, she wants to be her friend. Utena tries to get Anthy to leave Ohtori with her. Ghost Akio has vines and roses reach out and try to smother Utena. As she is being smothered in roses, Ghost Touga tells Utena to give up on him. Anthy screams at Ghost Akio to let Utena go and if not, she calls on him to smother her also. Anthy grabs Utena and they run away from Ohtori as the school crumbles. Cut to Anthy and Utena in street clothes, sitting kinda snuggled with their heads together (aww!) in the auditorium of a real planetarium watching the stars. Then they leave holding hands. The End.

I'll add some of the movie manga to my list of stuff to scan.

The car business in the movie was never too appealing to me. It doesn't feel like Utena. Plus doesn't Ikuhara say in the commentary that he always wanted to do a big car, video game-type sequence in a movie and this was his chance? Saito also comments that 'you just wanted Anthy to ride Utena' or something similar. Anyway. I think Ikuhara said he named one of his real cars "Rachael" after Rachael Lillis (English voice actor for Utena). Wonder what she thought of that?

brian wrote:

Two quibbles. Akio and Touga are not necessarily ghosts. Also Anthy does not kill Akio, that is simply what he accuses her of; and he is not a truthful person even when he is dead.

Good point. They are more corporeal than ghosts, true, but Anthy states they are both dead. I just couldn't think of a better term. And sorry, you're right, I re-read it and Akio does jump out of the window, just like the movie. It's just later he accuses Anthy of killing him but he's lying. Before he dies, he is just like movie-Akio. And, yeah, if you're Akio, do you really need to drug Anthy to get her to sleep with you?

That's a great explanation of Akio's thinking Ivy-chan.

In fact he may even believe that he's not lying, I could see how he could convince himself of that. She was enabling his corruption so that was not good. Trying to "reform" him would not have worked. Resisting him would not have worked in the end. Being a goddess ain't all it's cracked up to be.

Anyway Giovanna pony up ten bucks for the book and read it already. If you can fight your way past the first page you will find some new ideas. Miki and Juri don't get to angst much but you'll get illuminating glimpses into their characters and motivations. No Nanami or Kozue at all unfortunately but that's almost an improvement over the slighting way Ikuhara treated them in the movie. Saito's drawing of Utena is not as good as the original manga but her Anthy is better. And this Anthy actually expresses her thoughts and feelings!

I think I've seen it in multiple places, Kinokuniya, a local comic book store, and Barnes & Noble. ISBN 1-59116-500-8, US$ 9.95.

The cover art is rather gooey but, as I said before, Saito's Anthy is drawn and characterized very differently and interestingly. Utena is a bit too butch and elongated just like like in the movie; there is no Kozue, Nanami or Shiori. (Thank goodness because the movie treated them shabbily.) Saionji stills chews the carpet. (You'll have to make up your own minds about that.) Lots and lots and lots of Touga , and Akio is drawn in a decadent new style. There is some great dialog and it has an unambiguous happy ending.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I hate to go off-topic, but was the movie manga released in the US?  If so, by whom?  I collected the 5 volumes of the series-manga, but I never saw the movie-manga...

It has been released in America, but it was rather difficult to come across where I live. I found it ten months after I bought the first five volumes, even though I had been searching the entire time.

Sorry for the OT--but, thanks.  Now that I know, I can find it somewhere/somehow, I'm sure.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (01-24-2007 04:19:43 PM)

brian wrote:

How could he possibly have killed Kozue from that position?

How can a person become a car?

(Sorry to break the ask a question get a question theme...)

brian wrote:

So, there they are in the bathtub, a blade at Miki's throat. How could he possibly have killed Kozue from that position? Something died but it wasn't necessarily Kozue.

I doubt Miki would try much against someone who has a razor to his throat, he's not suicidal. Miki escapes the tub without apparent harm somehow, I assume by talking his way out. Turning Kozue into a car occurs later, logically just before the scene in the garage (where we first see the Kozue car.)