This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top10-19-2006 06:45:52 AM

Maarika
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From: Estonia
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Himemiya

Have you noticed how Utena always addresses Anthy as "Himemiya", while the majority of everyone else always calls her Anthy? (Well, putting aside manga and movie >.>)

After rewatching the series, I found only one part (unless I overlooked something) where Utena addressed her as Anthy. It was in episode 20, just before the duel with Wakaba.
I think there has to be a reason why she does so. I'm thinking that it might be because of the way how people treated Anthy, so this was Utena's way of showing respect to her. But I don't know really, what do you think?


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#2 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:28:57 AM

UtenaFanGirl
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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Re: Himemiya

u-u maybe i got to watch that over to hear the voicing

i thought utena always said himemiya as showing respect cause everyone does call her anshi but without the whole familarity of calling people by their first name....o.O dont know...probably have ta look into japanese culture


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#3 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:34:07 AM

Tamago
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From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: Himemiya

UtenaFanGirl wrote:

u-u maybe i got to watch that over to hear the voicing

i thought utena always said himemiya as showing respect cause everyone does call her anshi but without the whole familarity of calling people by their first name....o.O dont know...probably have ta look into japanese culture

If you call someone by their first name (not their family name) esspecially without a suffix of some kind (eg Anthy-san, Utena-kun, Akio-sama) and you are not a close friend or family member, it can be considered an insult.

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#4 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:46:50 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Himemiya

Tamago wrote:

UtenaFanGirl wrote:

u-u maybe i got to watch that over to hear the voicing

i thought utena always said himemiya as showing respect cause everyone does call her anshi but without the whole familarity of calling people by their first name....o.O dont know...probably have ta look into japanese culture

If you call someone by their first name (not their family name) esspecially without a suffix of some kind (eg Anthy-san, Utena-kun, Akio-sama) and you are not a close friend or family member, it can be considered an insult.

And if I'm not mistaken then close friends call each other by their first name. Utena doesn't do that, although she and Anthy can be considered close friends.
Hehe, ironically, Anthy doesn't either, so maybe it's a protest of some sort.


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#5 | Back to Top10-19-2006 01:11:12 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Himemiya

Maarika wrote:

And if I'm not mistaken then close friends call each other by their first name. Utena doesn't do that, although she and Anthy can be considered close friends.
Hehe, ironically, Anthy doesn't either, so maybe it's a protest of some sort.

Hmm. That is odd now that I think of it, but maybe it's because you watch their relationship develop, and they weren't close to begin with. They become friends but from the beginning it's almost a business relationship, and they might have stuck with those conventions until the need was totally removed. (Anthy says 'Utena' right at the end.)


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#6 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:19:38 PM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: Himemiya

Oooh, something I disagree with Gio on!

I don't think you can characterize it as a business relationship on Utena's end. Anthy's end, certainly-- she's just in the business of being the lure for another Prince, and Utena is it. Just doing her job. Utena, however, was confused by the whole thing, and probably started calling her Himemiya exclusively so that there was a certain amount of distance between them she felt she wasn't getting.

After that, I can really only speculate, but here is one explanation. It may have become a self-conscious habit, one that Utena was aware of keeping up, as opposed to one that becomes unconscious. This would explain why she dropped it at a point of stress.

This does not fit, however, with Utena's insistence on calling her Himemiya at the crucial stress point. Anothr explanation could be that the character of the Prince is calling the character of the witch by the name of 'Princess-Shrine'-- mistaking her for something holy and precious, something to be protected. This explains it symbolically, both pointing out Anthy's masquerade and eventual transformation into the person Utena believes her to be. A metamophosis of sorts.

This doesn't explain the motivation, however. The character motivation in this case could be as simple as a habit of Utena's-- just that that's what she called Anthy, so to her, that was Anthy's real name.


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#7 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:30:12 PM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: Himemiya

Eposide 37 Himemiya and Akio-san were riding in the car and she had the swords coming from her when the light hit her. Do you think they were always there in her since that time and no one except Akio and she could see it? ( I hope this makes sense)

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#8 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:41:12 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
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Re: Himemiya

Yasha wrote:

Oooh, something I disagree with Gio on!

Only partially, darling. emot-keke

I should have clarified, I meant that it was initiated as a business relationship on Anthy's part. Utena might have just gone with what Anthy started out of a total confusion as to what else to do. That doesn't explain how things turn out later on, though; why she doesn't switch later on.

ZSPACE wrote:

Eposide 37 Himemiya and Akio-san were riding in the car and she had the swords coming from her when the light hit her. Do you think they were always there in her since that time and no one except Akio and she could see it? ( I hope this makes sense)

I've always figured the swords come in waves, since she appears in pain when we see them and looks fine the rest of the time. But then that depends on how you define 'fine'. Her silence and vacance could be someone in excessive pain.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#9 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:45:29 PM

SleepDebtFairy
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From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: Himemiya

Yasha wrote:

This does not fit, however, with Utena's insistence on calling her Himemiya at the crucial stress point. Anothr explanation could be that the character of the Prince is calling the character of the witch by the name of 'Princess-Shrine'-- mistaking her for something holy and precious, something to be protected. This explains it symbolically, both pointing out Anthy's masquerade and eventual transformation into the person Utena believes her to be. A metamophosis of sorts.

I really like that idea. Perhaps it's also unconscious from her memory of seeing Anthy stabbed with all those swords as a child and being called a witch? I can't think of many reasons why Utena calls her Himemiya, though..

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#10 | Back to Top10-20-2006 12:24:25 PM

Melusina
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 19

Re: Himemiya

My guess is that it has something to do with Anthy's position as the princess but also the fact that no one can -really- access who she is until the end of the series. She's the Rose Bride, Utena's Princess, etc. but once she's able to transition out of that place, she can use her real name.

Of course, we didn't get to see any kind of epilogue, but that's my guess. xD Himemiya is just another formality between Anthy and Utena that Utena has to strip away.

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#11 | Back to Top10-21-2006 07:28:03 PM

Ger
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Re: Himemiya

From what I've gathered listening to Japanese guys talk, that's usually how they address each other (by last name). It's more "masculine" - same as in English war movies, you have all these soldiers calling each other by their last names. Japanese guys address each other by last name to be more dramatic, to highlight their masculinity, and just to overall be guys.

Just thinking that it might work very well with Utena's trying to become a prince.

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#12 | Back to Top10-21-2006 08:16:03 PM

Ragnarok
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Registered: 10-20-2006
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Re: Himemiya

I always liked that Utena referred to Anthy as Himemiya for the fact that she's, consciously or not, calling Anthy a princess. In essence by doing that she's also calling herself a prince, because of their link, which didn't start in friendship. Since the whole relationship starts with Utena protecting Anthy from Saionji, she's always been acting in the role of Anthy's prince, giving Anthy the role of Princess. Not because Anthy wants that role, but because it's required for Utena to be the princely figure she wishes to become. Which fits nicely with the eventual realization Utena has, that she's been facing everything at Ohtori as a challenge to her princely morals, instead of genuinely trying to do what's best for Anthy.

The duel against Wakaba is interesting for a lot of reasons and definitely my favourite of the Black Rose arc. (Although I never caught Utena using Anthy's name.) It's the one time Utena doesn't use a sword at all, although before it even starts Anthy pleads with Utena to draw it out. To fit that in with character reasoning, it's the only time Utena doesn't want to duel in order to protect Anthy. (Even if she says otherwise in her rematch with Saionji.) So in a way, she could be reflexively calling her Anthy because she doesn't want to acknowlege her own princely duties.


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#13 | Back to Top10-21-2006 09:27:12 PM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Himemiya

Can you imagine how psycologically damaged she is? I just find it amazing to try to determine her thought patterns and all of the things that has happened to her. The dules have been going on forever and she does whatever the winner of the duel says...

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#14 | Back to Top10-21-2006 09:46:38 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Himemiya

Character-wise, I think it was partially because of Utena's attempts at male behavior, calling friends by their surnames instead of their given names. She does this with Saionji and Juri, giving Juri the respectful suffix 'sempai'. However, she calls Wakaba by her given name, and she calls Miki by his given name. So, presumably, she's giving herself some distance from Himemiya, possibly because of the strangeness in their relationship, and also because of subconscious discomfort for romantic and sexual feelings towards her. Repeated use of that name makes it seem more like her name than 'Anthy' is, the same way nicknames work. I remember only one time that she called her Anthy, and that was when she was fighting Wakaba in the Black Rose Saga. "Anthy...I can't." in response to Anthy telling her to use the sword. 

Symbolism-wise, I think there's a lot of credit to the thought of the Prince calling her 'Princess' all throughout the show.


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#15 | Back to Top10-21-2006 09:52:32 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Himemiya

Ragnarok wrote:

The duel against Wakaba

I just rewatched it, and holy crap, she does call her Anthy! I'm pretty sure she doesn't do it too many times in the series (rewatch: NEEDED), but you're right, it's definitely interesting she'd do it there. Anthy immediately tries to talk Utena into taking the sword, and I think part of why she uses her name just then is she's trying to emphasize Anthy as a friend to make the point that this is about friendship and not a duel. As if stressing that intimacy would explain to Anthy why she can't do this, and if Anthy saw that they themselves were also friends, maybe she'd understand what the problem here is. It's as if she's in the context suggesting the question: You wouldn't do it to me, would you? Which is, now that I think of it, interesting since in the end, that's very much what Anthy does. I'd definitely agree Utena's trying to undermine her princely duties there.

ZSPACE wrote:

The dules have been going on forever and she does whatever the winner of the duel says...

That raises the interesting question of how often they've taken sexual advantage of her. She's called a bride, so it's almost suggested they'd be permitted to do so, but we know Utena doesn't, and the two others that have her...well it's hard to say. I don't think Saionji would use Anthy for sex knowing as well as he does that she doesn't care at all for him, and that he has a childish exchange diary seems to hint that he hasn't really made an attempt on Anthy this way, though it would not be hard to argue him having done so. I tend to see him, as Yasha said, as an eternal virgin. He looks down too much on Touga's philandering, I think his view of sex is a little more idealistic and emotionally demanding. As for Touga, despite his sexual reputation, there's absolutely nothing suggesting he had sex with Anthy when she was his bride. In fact he was quite negligent compared to Utena and Saionji. I suspect he avoided her because he sees her as a doll, or more importantly, she doesn't want him. Touga would take no pleasure from sex with a woman that wasn't falling all over herself with lust for him. Still, god knows how long she's been Rose Bride, I suspect somewhere along the line it's happened. But then it's not like sexual abuse is exactly a new concept for her.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#16 | Back to Top10-21-2006 10:03:13 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Himemiya

I suspect that, like her constant impalement by the swords, Anthy's been so accustomed to that sort of abuse and emotional maiming that she's become completely closed-off to the effects of it. She's at a psychological cold point, where her own feelings are so dulled and detached that they must seem nonexistant. I see her as accepting rape, sexual abuse, emotional and verbal abuse, and physical pain as  normal occurences: something she takes no pleasure from, but undergoes anyway. Pleasure would be an alien concept to her now, and anything she feels I suspect would be in small degrees. This gives her moments of true, intense emotion even more impact: the single tear she sheds during Utena's second duel with Touga, and her guilt-inspired attempted suicide near the end of the series. It's hard to even consider the damage at that magnitude.


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#17 | Back to Top10-23-2006 05:21:11 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Himemiya

Ivy-chan wrote:

I suspect that, like her constant impalement by the swords, Anthy's been so accustomed to that sort of abuse and emotional maiming that she's become completely closed-off to the effects of it. She's at a psychological cold point, where her own feelings are so dulled and detached that they must seem nonexistant. I see her as accepting rape, sexual abuse, emotional and verbal abuse, and physical pain as  normal occurences: something she takes no pleasure from, but undergoes anyway. Pleasure would be an alien concept to her now, and anything she feels I suspect would be in small degrees. This gives her moments of true, intense emotion even more impact: the single tear she sheds during Utena's second duel with Touga, and her guilt-inspired attempted suicide near the end of the series. It's hard to even consider the damage at that magnitude.

Great analysis of Anthy, I totally agree. A friend asked me about SKU and why it's so good and the (very) short answer I gave was this: Because characters like Anthy aren't supposed to "win". The witch is the villain of the story or the emotionally damaged one is held up as the example of what not to do so that the hero can see that those choices are wrong and go on to make the right ones. But in SKU, Anthy overcomes all that and gets to win, and (presumably) she gets the girl and the hero. That's certainly turning fairy tales on their heads.

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#18 | Back to Top10-23-2006 05:43:38 PM

Melusina
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 19

Re: Himemiya

Dani wrote:

Ivy-chan wrote:

I suspect that, like her constant impalement by the swords, Anthy's been so accustomed to that sort of abuse and emotional maiming that she's become completely closed-off to the effects of it. She's at a psychological cold point, where her own feelings are so dulled and detached that they must seem nonexistant. I see her as accepting rape, sexual abuse, emotional and verbal abuse, and physical pain as  normal occurences: something she takes no pleasure from, but undergoes anyway. Pleasure would be an alien concept to her now, and anything she feels I suspect would be in small degrees. This gives her moments of true, intense emotion even more impact: the single tear she sheds during Utena's second duel with Touga, and her guilt-inspired attempted suicide near the end of the series. It's hard to even consider the damage at that magnitude.

Great analysis of Anthy, I totally agree. A friend asked me about SKU and why it's so good and the (very) short answer I gave was this: Because characters like Anthy aren't supposed to "win". The witch is the villain of the story or the emotionally damaged one is held up as the example of what not to do so that the hero can see that those choices are wrong and go on to make the right ones. But in SKU, Anthy overcomes all that and gets to win, and (presumably) she gets the girl and the hero. That's certainly turning fairy tales on their heads.

Seconded. Anthy's transformation was unique in so many ways-- and I'm sure it didn't hurt that I related to a lot of her issues. xD But it gives the end such a hopeful feel when she leaves, even if we don't get any answers. . .if Anthy can survive, then there's hope for the rest of the world, too.

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#19 | Back to Top10-23-2006 08:14:17 PM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Himemiya

Episode 38 when Utena duels Akio; after the castle starts to crumble. What is going on in her mind? Do you think it took her a lot of self convincing to stab Utena in the back? I was like OH MY GOD! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!! SHE HAS DONE SO MUCH FOR YOU? The sun in the daytime the moon at night. I will take the form of the suspended clock ( is this Anthy).  As the song goes 'BOON BOON KINKOKAN'. THE ETERNAL CITY AND THE MYSTERY OF THE CLOCK. What is the mystery what is the secret?

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#20 | Back to Top10-23-2006 08:49:38 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Himemiya

ZSPACE wrote:

Episode 38 when Utena duels Akio; after the castle starts to crumble. What is going on in her mind? Do you think it took her a lot of self convincing to stab Utena in the back? I was like OH MY GOD! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!! SHE HAS DONE SO MUCH FOR YOU? The sun in the daytime the moon at night. I will take the form of the suspended clock ( is this Anthy).  As the song goes 'BOON BOON KINKOKAN'. THE ETERNAL CITY AND THE MYSTERY OF THE CLOCK. What is the mystery what is the secret?

Yeah, I know, it's such a blow your mind moment. You think you know how deep down Anthy's suffering is, especially after the attempted suicide, but you don't know how deep it is until she does that. The first time I saw it, I stood up and yelled at my TV. I mean, she's faced with salvation and she completely rejects it. And yet you know she loves Utena, you know it. WTF.

And, from a different point of view, if you are the SKU writers (Ikuhara and Be-Papas), you have to have Utena and Anthy and Akio all at cross purposes at the end of the show. Any two against one is too much power on one side. But a three sided conflict on an epic scale with the "world" hanging in the balance is good storytelling to me.

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#21 | Back to Top10-23-2006 10:40:55 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Himemiya

ZSPACE wrote:

Episode 38 when Utena duels Akio; after the castle starts to crumble. What is going on in her mind? Do you think it took her a lot of self convincing to stab Utena in the back?

I think... Anthy had already made her decision when she gave Utena the reconstituted invitation to the arena.  She knew she'd be called upon to do something like this, and accepted it, perhaps without question (though not without tears).  She loves Akio; everything she has done, even imprisoning him, she has done for love of him.  She probably even blames herself for what he has become.  There's no way she could betray him; in that sense, she really is a puppet.  What she is not is an emotionless puppet.  We see shortly before the final duel that Anthy would rather kill herself than Utena... but Akio must always come first.

Last edited by satyreyes (10-23-2006 10:41:16 PM)

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#22 | Back to Top10-23-2006 11:28:01 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: Himemiya

satyreyes wrote:

She loves Akio; everything she has done, even imprisoning him, she has done for love of him.  She probably even blames herself for what he has become.  There's no way she could betray him; in that sense, she really is a puppet.  What she is not is an emotionless puppet.  We see shortly before the final duel that Anthy would rather kill herself than Utena... but Akio must always come first.

I suspect that Anthy's 'love' for Akio is little more than an echoed remnant of her love for Dios. I think her puppet status is due to her incomplete 'soul', a piece of which was 'buried' inside the coffin inside the Rose Seal, a side-effect being that her mind and will isn't exactly completely autonomous.

(It's times like this when I believe that while I might have the mental equivient of a PentiumŪ 3 brain but with a clock speed of only about 120MHz)

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#23 | Back to Top10-23-2006 11:52:32 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
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Re: Himemiya

satyreyes wrote:

I think... Anthy had already made her decision when she gave Utena the reconstituted invitation to the arena.  She knew she'd be called upon to do something like this, and accepted it, perhaps without question (though not without tears).  She loves Akio; everything she has done, even imprisoning him, she has done for love of him.  She probably even blames herself for what he has become.  There's no way she could betray him; in that sense, she really is a puppet.  What she is not is an emotionless puppet.  We see shortly before the final duel that Anthy would rather kill herself than Utena... but Akio must always come first.

Definitely agreed here. Anthy had to choose between her loyalties between Akio and Utena, and in the end she chose Akio. Maybe she also stabbed Utena to protect her as well, though. It certainly wasn't fatal, so maybe she just wanted Utena to give up and hand over her sword for them to use and be hurt but safe. Or maybe the stab was meant to be fatal? I'm not sure. emot-redface

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#24 | Back to Top10-24-2006 07:19:16 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Himemiya

Ivy-chan wrote:

This gives her moments of true, intense emotion even more impact: the single tear she sheds during Utena's second duel with Touga, and her guilt-inspired attempted suicide near the end of the series.

100% agreement, just throwing in her genuine laugh in episode 25. That's a big one. emot-smile

Dani wrote:

And, from a different point of view, if you are the SKU writers (Ikuhara and Be-Papas), you have to have Utena and Anthy and Akio all at cross purposes at the end of the show. Any two against one is too much power on one side. But a three sided conflict on an epic scale with the "world" hanging in the balance is good storytelling to me.

Damn right it is! For a three-sided conflict that whole thing is a massive trainwreck of intentions and interests. Akio's in it for himself. Utena's in for Anthy, but also to justify herself. Anthy's in it for Utena, then for Akio, then she doesn't know what the crap, then finally she's in it for herself. Or something. There's so much going on there that my head breaks.

Tamago wrote:

(It's times like this when I believe that while I might have the mental equivient of a PentiumŪ 3 brain but with a clock speed of only about 120MHz)

I got that. emot-gonk


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#25 | Back to Top10-24-2006 07:27:55 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Himemiya

Giovanna wrote:

Ivy-chan wrote:

This gives her moments of true, intense emotion even more impact: the single tear she sheds during Utena's second duel with Touga, and her guilt-inspired attempted suicide near the end of the series.

100% agreement, just throwing in her genuine laugh in episode 25. That's a big one. emot-smile

Oh, yes, I totally agree that every little crack in her facade speaks volumes. Love that scene, the look Akio gives her after that giggle is monstrous. Like he's looking at a complete stranger and he's very upset/angry.

And another small moment, when he asks her "What do you think of her (Utena)?" and her finger twitches EVER so slightly as she says "In what way?" and then he gets irritated with her again, grabs her and she changes the subject when the tea cup breaks. These are the Akio/Anthy moments I so appreciate.

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