This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top10-24-2006 08:13:49 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Nanami!

Dani wrote:

Curry based body swapping.

Yes, being Anthy certainly gives Utena a new appreciation for the life Anthy leads (except I guess she got changed back before a Saturday night rolled around?). And Anthy sure is in no hurry to switch back, a taste of freedom? Also, they might be platonic in the strictest physical sense but there is some major sexual tension.

A 'What If' Utena was still stuck inside Anthy's body when it gets to Saturday night, would make for an intriging fan-fiction to say the least. emot-biggrin

OoOoOoOoOoOoO

The funny thing about Nanami is that before I was able to watch SKU for myself and not just read about the storylines and the essays on the show, I would have just dismissed Nanami out of hand as simply as the emot-mad'Giant foreheaded, kitten-killing, wannabe brotha-fukker, snobby-ass bitch.'emot-mad 

Who would have thought that she would end up as one of my most favourite characters in the whole series. etc-loveemot-kekeetc-love

Last edited by Tamago (10-24-2006 08:53:01 PM)

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#27 | Back to Top10-24-2006 08:45:07 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 190

Re: Nanami!

In the end though Nanami does appear to be the most noble of all of the Seitokai. Her reason for dueling is exactly the same reason that Utena dueled Touga back in episode 12. She wanted to regain and surpass herself. She had as much reason to win and conquer everything that kept her under as much as Utena did. But unfortunately that wasn't in Akio's plans, using her as bait for another duel leading towards revolution. Notice Nanami's style. It is exorbitantly different from her brother's, she fight's with power and an assassin's touch. If it weren't for the power of Dios, Utena would have easily been defeated by Nanami. Yet after the duel Utena doesn't even act as if it was a challenge. Though in my opinion Nanami fight's just as well as Juri or even "Enchanted Arena" Touga. Though I could go on and on about Nanami's suprebly vast improvement's that's not the point of this thread. Though it could be an interesting comparison.

EDIT: I just rewatched the duel and I love the internal dialogue the two have. They couldn't possibly be talking in the duel as Nanami is shouting battle cry's all over the place. So internal dialogue is just that... that may be my favorite conversation in the series.  Also rewatching this duel proves that Mikage borrowed a move from Nanami as well (could be the other way around, it's also possible Juri does the same move.) She does a three forward strike which... doesn't achieve much but what's strange about their lunge is during that time Mikage inacted the side switching move.. which I'm still not quite sure how that worked. Anyway... out of all the duelists it seems that Nanami's uses a lot of Mikage moves, if you notice Nanami and Touga's duel uses a lot of Mikage moves... though I doubt there is any hidden meaning behind it... but Mikage was the only man that Nanami was attracted to in the least. Another thing to add to this rambling point. If you notice hnear the end of her duel once she knocks Utena to the ground she hesitates for just a moment with the memory of childhood Touga saying "Stop it!" in referring to hitting the kitten. Or is this me reading too much into it.

Last edited by Xu Yuan (10-24-2006 09:02:37 PM)

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#28 | Back to Top10-24-2006 10:05:45 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
Website

Re: Nanami!

Clarice wrote:

I agree that Nanami's identity is caught up in who her brother is -- and one of the main reasons I didn't feel any surprise over Nanami shoving Touga away from her in the kiss scene is because of the relevance of the blood types. Nanami flips out to find she's not related to Touga -- because she WANTS to be related to him. If she leaned more the other way, then surely she would be happy to know there was no blood relation between them (although to give the show its dues, no-one else with a lust for their sibling seems to much care about the incest thing...). Nanami clung desperately to that blood relation aspect of their relationship, however, and why? Because she has something in common with Wakaba...she feels she is not as special as she makes herself out to be. If anything is shown by the comic relief episodes it is that Nanami is fundamentally insecure, but because she is related by blood to one of the "special people," that by default makes her special too. Not being related to Touga relegates her to the world of the insects who swarm all over him. This brings her world crashing down -- but it is interesting to note that Touga hits on her when she is convinced of their non-relation status, and she still shoves him away. She won't go that direction to make herself special, which is interesting. She knows how empty his relationships are, and though in some ways her sibling relationship was just as empty at least she was the only one. She knew she'd never be the only one if she was Touga's "girlfriend," but I think the idea was totally anaethema to her anyway. She wanted to be close to Touga to share in his specialness, but as his sister, not as anything else.

I agree that Nanami grows up, too, because she realises Touga's got feet of clay. ...and possibly a few STDs. I think she really needed a sex ed class after all that, anyway. school-devil

*___* Thank you for the thoughtful explanation, I kept wondering about it. Wow.. Nanami. etc-love She may have been childish and selfish, but at that point she really starts to realize what she has to do and grows. Such wonderful character development. A lot of the events in the wacky Nanami filler episodes certainly seem to lead up to that.

Ivy-chan wrote:

Am I the only one who thought that whole episode was a crazy dream sequence inflicted on Nanami by Anthy, via her lovely monkey familiar, who also planted a painted (emptied) egg in her bed? That strange expression Anthy had when ChuChu had been suspiciously out all night gave me that impression.

I've wondered about that a little too, but it's been a while since I've seen that episode so I don't remember the part about Chuchu too well. But the way you described what happened in that episode.. wow. I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Nanami needed some help in maturing. emot-wink I suppose it was to get her ready for her last duel.

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#29 | Back to Top10-25-2006 07:58:02 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Nanami!

Clarice wrote:

Ooh, here's something I'd like to explore -- what was YOUR reaction to the kiss scene, everyone? I am beginning to think I am the only person who WASN'T surprised by Nanami shoving Touga the fuck out of her face.

Nope, I definitely wasn't surprised. I think Nanami was sexually attracted to Touga, but not because she wanted sex, understood it, or even realized she felt that way. In total ignorance I think she'd have been quite happy to sleep with him, just for the closeness. But she does know what sex is, and that he doesn't seem to take it too seriously. She's just innocent enough to harbor a desire for him without quite understanding it, but it's still very much the background; she loves Touga, for a few reasons but she does want him, and it doesn't quite click to her until those episodes what that wanting means now that they're older. She sees Akio and Anthy together and I think she was 99% revolted and 1% regretful that it was bad for things to work that way. Nanami strikes me as the type that would see sex as a very close hug, except that Touga's philandering has taught her better.

In fact, I think down the road his behavior with other women will end up giving Nanami a very poor view of sex. She wanted desperately to be close to her brother, that desire for affection should naturally have carried over to sex, but watching Touga treat it more casually than he treats his dinner menu would no doubt have an effect on her now that she is aware of sexuality in a more immediate sense.

I shouldn't analyze in the morning.

Tamago wrote:

A 'What If' Utena was still stuck inside Anthy's body when it gets to Saturday night, would make for an intriging fan-fiction to say the least. emot-biggrin

There are a lot of things you can do with a virgin body that doesn't noticeably change it. The question is, do we consider this a form of rape? Or would Akio and Anthy be engaging in a very tangible form of roleplaying? emot-aaa


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#30 | Back to Top10-25-2006 01:25:45 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Nanami!

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

*___* Thank you for the thoughtful explanation, I kept wondering about it. Wow.. Nanami. etc-love She may have been childish and selfish, but at that point she really starts to realize what she has to do and grows. Such wonderful character development. A lot of the events in the wacky Nanami filler episodes certainly seem to lead up to that.

I adore the character of Nanami. etc-love If you're interested, I once wrote an essay about the egg episode that ended up being more a generalisation of her character than anything else; you can read it here: http://claireoujisama.livejournal.com/399945.html

It's been a while since I've read it -- let alone since I WROTE it -- so I've probably forgotten the half of what I was getting at, but hey, it's analysis, it's fun to poke holes in it. school-devil


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#31 | Back to Top10-25-2006 07:35:29 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Nanami!

Clarice wrote:

I adore the character of Nanami. etc-love If you're interested, I once wrote an essay about the egg episode that ended up being more a generalisation of her character than anything else; you can read it here: http://claireoujisama.livejournal.com/399945.html

It's been a while since I've read it -- let alone since I WROTE it -- so I've probably forgotten the half of what I was getting at, but hey, it's analysis, it's fun to poke holes in it. school-devil

I clicked the link to read your comments on Nanami's Egg and as my brain isn't too great at absorbing facts in large quanities, I will read it again soon. emot-keke

I can comfortably say that I have thought some aspects of the story in the same way (even if I wouldn't be able to write it down as well as you) you also have given me a modified outlook on Nanami's nature.

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#32 | Back to Top10-25-2006 08:51:43 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: Nanami!

I think Nanami is of the ones to adopt a role and take it literally sometimes without noticing. He got a cowbell and decided to wear it and became a cow, she get an egg thinking she laid it and she started acting like her mother. When Touga disappeared from the spotlight she took the role of interine president and tried to take it seriously.
The role of a beautiful, classy and superior girl than others was created for herself in her searching of an identity and she tried to cling on it no matter how adverse seemed the circumstances. She wants her identity to be like that not just another girl in the swarm.


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1390/firmautenaji0.jpg

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#33 | Back to Top10-27-2006 11:17:40 AM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Nanami!

I love Nanami's ability to tell it how it is. Like when she called Akio a pervert.

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#34 | Back to Top10-30-2006 03:50:30 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Nanami!

I think that Nanami is sort of what Wakaba and Shiori want to be. Her power, her "specialness," is rooted in the fact that she's Touga's sister, but she took that association that made her a little special and ran with it, becoming a force in her own right. She's not particularly likeable at first, especially in her attempts on Anthy's dignity, but she's had to work for her influence and has to work to keep it.

It's really shown that she made herself special when her friends turn on her for not being Touga's real sister, and they find that she still has power over them (in the form of fisticuffs, but still).

This probably makes no sense but I'm really tired.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#35 | Back to Top10-30-2006 06:32:32 AM

Ger
Rose Smilee
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 139
Website

Re: Nanami!

Ivy-chan wrote:

She said she wanted to surpass everything, her brother, herself up til that point, everything. I started loving Nanami at that point.

I was rewatching that episode last night, actually, and had to rewind it twice because I was curious about the odd Japanese she was using there. Has anyone noticed this before? Nanami says "subete o koete....oniisama mo...watakushi mo."

The verb "koeru" means to cross over or beyond, usually in a spiritual or poetic sense, as in transcendence or breaking free of something. She also doesn't use the usual "I want" form of the verb - instead she simply says "I WILL transcend," not simply "I want." The visual imagery there is supremely powerful in those three lines as Nanami sits up from the car hood and tells Utena that she'll not only beat Utena, but she'll transcend everything she's been up till this point. I think that this in part has a great deal to do with the "specialness" that keeps coming up in the series. Nanami is not "special" anymore based on Touga being her brother, but right now, she doesn't care. She will be special. She'll make herself special. She is special, and no one, not even Touga or Utena, can take that from her.

After she loses, I believe Nanami is at a real quandry. She, for a brief moment during that duel, had that specialness that Utena or Touga had - without needing a person to lean on to make her special. Now that she's lost, what does she have? And Touga doesn't make it any better. He simply walks away and goes to have sex with Akio (ha).

Last edited by Ger (10-30-2006 06:33:07 AM)

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#36 | Back to Top10-30-2006 06:35:22 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Nanami!

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I think that Nanami is sort of what Wakaba and Shiori want to be. Her power, her "specialness," is rooted in the fact that she's Touga's sister, but she took that association that made her a little special and ran with it, becoming a force in her own right. She's not particularly likeable at first, especially in her attempts on Anthy's dignity, but she's had to work for her influence and has to work to keep it.

It's really shown that she made herself special when her friends turn on her for not being Touga's real sister, and they find that she still has power over them (in the form of fisticuffs, but still).

This probably makes no sense but I'm really tired.

I agree, though it's vicious and not exactly morally upright, Nanami has a drive and passion for getting what she wants that Wakaba and Shiori lack. Of course it doesn't show itself to be a necessarily good trait, since it's used repeatedly against her, but she did seem to pick up some of her brother's determination and powerlust, enough that unlike Wakaba and Shiori, who pretty much accept they aren't special, even though they chafe against it, she fights and claws her way there. You get the impression Wakaba and Shiori would not have kicked the shit out of their friends when their friends put up a fight.

Again, it's hard to say whether that kind of stubbornness is a good thing; SKU sends mixed messages about it. In Utena's case it's an asset, in Saionji or Nanami's case, it usually gets them in trouble.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#37 | Back to Top10-30-2006 04:09:48 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Nanami!

[qu

Ragnarok wrote:

I wonder if there's anyone out there that dislikes Nanami for a reason other than this? It's hard to judge what Nanami thought she was doing, other than getting rid of the kitten. She's fiveish at the time, so it's highly unlikely she really understands death at all. Until she sees the box go over the falls and she realizes what she's done. That has got to be one of the most awful experiances a person could go through. Before she throws the kitten in the river she blames it for its own fate, and that's a mentality she clings to as a way to shield herself from having done such a terrible thing.

I showed my friend episode 10 yesterday. By the end of the duel, I finally remember to mention that she killed the kitten.

Friend: "She killed the kitten...? I hate Nanami now."

Me: "But she didn't mean too! *Tries to explain everything you just said.*"

Friend: "I don't care. If you kill a kitten, you're dead to me."

I'm a cat-lover myself, so I can sort of understand where she's coming with this, but I still don't think it should be held against her. This experience, however, gives us a good idea of how what Nanami did can affect the way she is viewed. When my sister and I were first watching Utena, she had actually seen it five years pervious, and the first thing she said when Nanami appeared during the themesong was, "That girl killed a kitten."

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#38 | Back to Top10-30-2006 06:37:21 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Nanami!

Razara wrote:

I'm a cat-lover myself, so I can sort of understand where she's coming with this, but I still don't think it should be held against her. This experience, however, gives us a good idea of how what Nanami did can affect the way she is viewed. When my sister and I were first watching Utena, she had actually seen it five years pervious, and the first thing she said when Nanami appeared during the themesong was, "That girl killed a kitten."

Well lets face it, lots of people (especially cat-lovers) who find out that certain persons have killed kittens tend to keep grudges against said person.

I mean who could look at something like this http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/squeeky.jpg and think "I wanna drown it"?

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#39 | Back to Top10-30-2006 09:05:41 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Nanami!

No one in their right mind, certainly!

Luckily that's not quite how it goes in Nanami's case either. As with other cases in SKU, it's the characters reactions to their own actions that humanizes them enough for us to care about them.

It's funny how easily a character can be damned by one thing, no matter how is shown of them. Nanami does a horrible thing and it's easier to hate her for it. A lot of people don't get past that. The same holds true for Shiori, Anthy, Saionji, etc. But no character in the series should be written off for any one thing they do, terrible as it may be.


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#40 | Back to Top10-30-2006 09:46:22 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: Nanami!

Tamago wrote:

I mean who could look at something like this http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/ … queeky.jpg and think "I wanna drown it"?

You. don't. really. want. to. know


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1390/firmautenaji0.jpg

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#41 | Back to Top12-17-2006 04:43:47 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: Nanami!

Razara wrote:

I mean who could look at something like this http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/ … queeky.jpg and think "I wanna drown it"?

well, who could look at something like this

http://www.clho.net/anime/utena/touga.jpg

and think "I don't want to sex it up" ?


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#42 | Back to Top12-17-2006 05:03:50 PM

SexingTouga24/7/365
is on a BOAT!
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 2267

Re: Nanami!

emot-tongue Not I in fact ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh etc-wankgirl etc-wankdude oh shoot worng place: (

Last edited by SexingTouga24/7/365 (12-17-2006 05:04:20 PM)


"If all the world is a stage and all the people players"...then I demand a less shitty part or the ability to get off of the stage. Slowly my sanity slides, slipping, swirling, spiraling...Save Me I need Sleep...Shattering Soon. school-devil "RukaxTouga equals the Fourth of July" MY patriotic celebration...FUCK ME TOUGA AND RUKA NOW!! etc-wankgirl etc-wankdude

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#43 | Back to Top12-17-2006 05:40:28 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Nanami!

dollface wrote:

well, who could look at something like this

http://www.clho.net/anime/utena/touga.jpg

and think "I don't want to sex it up" ?

I think the more important question is how could someone look at this,
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/RzMule/ShioriResized.jpg
And think, "She's the devil!"

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#44 | Back to Top12-17-2006 07:17:11 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: Nanami!

Razara wrote:

dollface wrote:

well, who could look at something like this

http://www.clho.net/anime/utena/touga.jpg

and think "I don't want to sex it up" ?

I think the more important question is how could someone look at this,
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/ … esized.jpg
And think, "She's the devil!"

I hear its quite easy. I'm an underachiever though.

So I'll settle for teenage girl. aka bitch with a cause.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#45 | Back to Top12-17-2006 08:21:42 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Nanami!

Razara wrote:

I think the more important question is how could someone look at this,
And think, "She's the devil!"

Especially with this running around.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/Akio_Arc015.jpg

emot-biggrin

(It honestly confuses me how anyone can view Shiori or Nanami as evil. One shouldn't dignify their behavior that way.)

Edit: OH GOD. I totally figured out why Akio has that haircut.

IT'S TO HIDE THE HORNS. school-eng101 school-devil school-eng101

Last edited by Giovanna (12-17-2006 08:22:43 PM)


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#46 | Back to Top12-17-2006 08:39:31 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: Nanami!

Giovanna wrote:

OH GOD. I totally figured out why Akio has that haircut.

IT'S TO HIDE THE HORNS. school-eng101 school-devil school-eng101

http://www.orlyowl.com/upload/files/oh_noes.jpg
ALERT THE PRESS


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#47 | Back to Top12-17-2006 08:46:12 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Nanami!

You know, that picture of Shiori might not be as innocent as it first appears. She was offering a rose to Juri. Roses have thorns, and thorns are sharp! It was obviously an attempt on her life.

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#48 | Back to Top12-17-2006 09:04:08 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: Nanami!

...back on topic, Nanami killing the kitten never really bothered me. It must be terrible to live with a need to be important to someone who needs to act like no one is important. I honestly think that part of Nanami's neurosis in the series was caused by Touga using her as a testing ground for charms he'd later turn on the floozies at the school-- making her feel important and loved and special, and then taking it away whenever he thought it was necessary, or forgot she needed him that badly.

I really tend to think that Nanami felt more over the death of that kitten than anyone else, maybe even including Touga. Granted, she doesn't seem to show it much, but the fact that she remembers it years later suggests that she attaches more significance to it than she wants. Hell, Touga's probably forgotten all about the cat.


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#49 | Back to Top12-17-2006 09:28:06 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Nanami!

It's interesting that we never see what Touga's reaction was. The only thing I'd be certain of is that he knew the truth; likely as soon as he next saw Nanami. (Regardless of if that's when she's still crying and running from it, or if she's had a chance to calm down somewhat.) I want to think that he'd end up comforting her, the way he does after her attack on Utena following the duel. Then again, I have a habit of thinking the best in Touga, as far as his actions permit me.

But whatever his reaction was, in as much as it concerns Nanami, it's too insignificant to the act itself to be shown. Telling, considering how much she values him.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#50 | Back to Top12-17-2006 09:35:23 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Nanami!

Yasha wrote:

Hell, Touga's probably forgotten all about the cat.

I think that, judging by what is says in episode 10, Touga did care about that cat to some extent. He said that it was his favorite gift, though that could just be because it was given to him by Nanami.

Regardless of how he really feels, I think that one of the things that bothered her most about that kitten's death was that she had taken away something that was precious to her brother. She may have assumed that he really cared for that kitten if he was willing to pay more attention to it than her.

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